Sunday Spawnfraggin #5
http://challonge.com/SunSpawn5

Sunday Spawnfraggin tournaments channel is : #div99 !

At Sunday X of May (to be decided, expect 24'th of may) 17:00 CET the tournament will begin.
All times used here are in CET.

- Open 4on4 clan tournament
- Map Pool: TB3 + 2 new maps -
Please voice your opinion on two of these maps you would like included: e1m3, e1m5, e2m2, e3m7, cmt1b, cmt2,cmt3,cmt4..
- Best of three games (Finals best of five.)
- Games are played EACH SUNDAY at 18:00. (except vs. American teams, where games will be arranged individually.)
- Each clan picks their map (highest seed picks first map), if score is 1-1 - clans remove remaining maps in turn from the pool, where the lowest seeded team removes first. (highest seed team only gets to remove 1 map).
- Finals each pick maps in turn, lowest seed first.
- "Idle Killer" rules - be sure to read it...

OPEN DEBATE : Nothing of this is set in stone, if no-one wants to play cmt1b, well, we remove it. I'd suggest giving it a try though, it's only a map. Or if no-one wants to play on sundays 1800, we can move the day. However, having a fixed time is crucial for getting the games played. If everyone think the way maps are picked and tossed away is weird we can change that as well, bring your argument!.)

To sign up:
You make a post here or contact a tournament admin on IRC with your teams name; where you include a full listing of all your squad members.

Signup Template:

Clan : XyX - IRC: #clanchannel - Members: Random, Clueless, Gitty, Freckles, Sunshinekills & TwitterSucks.

Signed so far::
In seeding order:
Clan: 020 - IRC: #020 - Members: aikon,raket ,lurq, z0mbie90, xorcist
Clan: Division Ninety Nine - IRC: #div99 - Members: dev, ocoini, Thor*10*, Verro, Saka Rauka1,


Details:

No restrictions on who can join (all "divs" ).
If you are in need of a team I'd suggest posting: http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/11/transfers . Or ask one of the signed clans to join them. If some 'free agents' (clanless) want to play, but don't have a team, I could help with organizing a team for you. Just send me a msg on irc or leave a msg here, and ill figure something out.

League system
(Everyone plays one MATCH against everyone else.).
- There will be FIXED opponents that needs to be played in THE ORDER THEY ARE LISTED! No cherry picking clans!
(follow the x vs y team on the site)
- Leading to playoffs (brackets). Possibly finals casted by !?)

One MATCH is played as a Best of Three on the maps Dm2,Dm3,E1m2,CMT1b, CMT2 & CMT4 against one clan.
- Highest seeded team picks map first.

- If Match score is 1-1 after two maps: Clans remove remaining maps from pool in turn.
- Lowest seeded team removes first.

(- Finals Each pick maps in turn, lowest seed first.)

Example match where Xclan is highest seed: Xclan pick DM2. Yclan picks DM3. Both win their map, score is 1-1. Yclan removes E1M2, Xclan removes CMT1b, Yclan removes CMT2 - Decider map is CMT4.


General EQL rules, and proper tournament etiquette apply. No Standins. No Fakenicking. No cheating, one player on one clan, Smackdown ruleset, etc, you know the drill...

- There are no restrictions on how many members you can signup for your clan.
- I'd suggest AT LEAST 6 motivated players pr team.


****
'Hardcore' rules engaged:

A minimum of TWO MATCHES has to have been played or are about to end each Sunday at 21:00. Or your entire team gets kicked.

All results are expected to be reported BEFORE 21:00
Or you will have to contact an admin explaining why you are delayed, so maybe we can help with arranging to get match played.

Idle killer rule: - show up or drop out.
- Each Sunday at 18:00 cet your team must have four players ready to play. Or your entire team gets kicked. (If we get a mostly American team signed up, matches will be individually arranged with them, so they will not have to show up on this time..)

OFFICIAL LOBBY SERVER @ ffa.besmella.com:27501
(We won't be collecting people from the lobby server, but if your team isn't much on IRC, this could be a good meeting ground!)

HOW TO PLAY:

* At 18:00 You have a representative in #div99 that tracks down your opponent.
(Or go to their channel).

* At 18:05 You are expected to have eight people actively searching for a fair latency server.

* At 18:15 You are expected to be /readying up and playing on a FAIR latency server.

* When you win/lose your first match, go straight to find your next opponent, and find a new fair server.

* Depending on status of your next ongoing opponent matches, and if they need a 10 min break - expect a little break. But no more than 20 minutes after your opponent finish their last game, or go to an admin and whine.

- Failure to not start the second match or making your opponents wait forever without any good reason, will get your entire team kicked.

None Nazi Clause to Idle killer rule

* AFTER the first Sunday, you have an entire week to play your next two matches.
But BOTH CLANS must agree to a time if you want to play outside of Sundays 18:00. If one clan can only play at Sundays 18:00, they have presidency and you MUST play them on Sunday.

* You are allowed to play more than two matches on Sunday and the rest of the week -
- If you do play more teams than two teams pr.week. expect that at some point you might have to wait for another clan to finish their games next Sunday if they are only playing on Sundays.

* Admins wont be total douches, and teams should try to work to get the matches played. However It's your own damn responsibility to show up; and we will not have very much patience if one clan makes four other players wait for hours without consent or holds up the tournament.
(even less patience than last time this go around)

Sunday Spawnfraggin' Tournament admins: ocoini & Qirex & Klice & Praxismo & z0mbie90


extra:

** Some clan hopping and late additions are allowed as long as it is reasonable. But don't abuse it.
Like X team suddenly gets kicked, but two players on X are active and want to play, then they can join team Y. Or player X is miserable playing with team Y, then he can join team X... etc.. is OK.

Bring your QuakeWorld coolness and lets give it a shoot.
(prior tournament: http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/topic/6574/sunday-spawnfraggin-2-donecompleteo )

(Edited 2015-05-07, 22:53)

How will ping be handled? Could you more finely define what "fair latency" means.

Actually, I don't think I'm competent enough to do it. I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks is fair. Or reference another thread/post/article talking about the subject did they reach a conclusion?

For me personally it would be that everyone pings up to the highest ping. _everyone_... I would have no problem pinging up to highest ping, but of course, I can't even get out of Aerowalk tele when ping is higher than 60... So there is a factor that some people are just better at playing with higher than others - so how do you find the fair ping level, should all of this be ignored and we just let the numbers talk? I don't know enough about this subject to have a valid opinion about it I think..

Given that I am always the highest pinging player (155 UK, 186 foppa), I'm probably biased. That said, I wouldn't want to force a poor experience on players that just want to have fun.

• I don't think having all players ping up to 150 is fair, or fun (everyone has a poor playing experience).
• I don't think a 25 ping experienced player vs 150 ping experienced player is fair, or fun (high pingers here have a dramatic disadvantage).
• I think a 25 ping rookie vs 150 ping experienced player may be fair and fun (if this results in a competitive, challenging game, everyone wins)

--

In December 2014 there was an experiment (thanks to niw encouraging Europeans to try it out). An experienced team of Europeans played a mostly experienced team of Americans on UK servers. Euros had 40 ping the first game and 90 ping the second.
Euros: bps, niw, makaveli, noob (mm) Vs. Americans: BLooD_DoG, sane, bogojoker, ivan
http://imgur.com/a/dAwB9

I think the results from that experiment were very telling. The scoreboards make that obvious. I have the demos of both games if anyone wants them.

• First game, average ping difference of 85, was a blowout. At the 10:00 mark the Europeans were ahead (173-33).
• Second game, average ping difference of 40, was close. At the 10:00 mark the Americans were actually ahead (90-87).

I should say that the Americans had voice comm and the Europeans did not.

I don't recall any comments from the Europeans on whether or not 90 ping felt unreasonable. I can say that my experience (at 155) was dramatically better. I had more fun. For competitive players, I would hope the Euros had more fun because it was actually challenging.

--

In March 2015, Americans played Russians 4 dm2 games in a row in UK.

Americans: averaging 128 ping (BLooD_DoG, bogojoker, sned, dev)
Russians: averaging 70 ping (murz, fomin, SS, nossari!)
Both teams on voice.

4 games in a row the Russians won with ending score differences between 9 and 68. All but one game was a nail biter in the last couple minutes. Very competitive. If you were to ping up just the top scorer on one side from 50 to 80 you would probably see completely even teams.

--

I might as well link to this as well. Around the time the euro games were played I documented the major disadvantages of high ping:
http://pastie.org/pastes/10119475/text?key=eg36memzorebuoltjpvb0w

--

My thoughts would be: If you're a rookie, keep your low ping, the games will be closer that way. If you're an experienced player, playing against high ping opponents, I don't think it is unreasonable to ping up to 50-90 if it makes the game more competitive. Don't know if you're experienced? Ask your opponents.

Ping was, is, and always will be an issue in internet games


from my vast experience of high pinger, what I say is: the lower ping difference between the players, the better.

its acceptable to play 90 vs 130 or 50 vs 90.
On the other hand, its not acceptable to play 13 vs 65 or 38 vs 90. In a nutshell, when the ping difference is <40ms its ok, if ping difference is higher than 50 problems start.

Common sense usually is enough. Just ask to change server (and suggest one!) if you feel you can have better conditions to play.

as always, make proper use of qwfwd's/qizmos, trying different routes (sometimes automatic route isn't the better you can get).

Bogo makes a good post (for once!). Particularly interesting is his link highlighting the problems that almost nobody in Europe fully understands There really is a ton of frustration playing with 100ms+ no matter how much you are used to it (dropped weapons that shouldn't drop, easy fights that are lost because you always shoot last, etc...). Most important points from the link are disadvantage #9 and advantage #2.

Why dont we apply this EQL rule and ignore everything else?



Considering bogojoker's reasonable argument for not asking rookies to ping up, this fits perfectly.

Well. There's also something else.

I feel like 40ms ping difference when both players pings < 100ms is NOTHING against 40ms ping difference when at least one of them pings > 100ms.

Nothing is worse than disadvantage #5.

1. Find a stable server with as low difference as possible.
2. Low ping team pings up to the lowest ping of the enemy team. Max 50ms though.

If you have high ping: tough luck, get a better connection or move or dont take part in tournaments on other continents.

There is no better way to do this. It is in no way fair to ask someone to go over 50ms just because you live half the world away.


Also, that USA-EU game. EU had better players on each of the 4 spots compared to USA. It would have been even steven, even with the EU team on the low pings, if you hadnt played with such uneven teams.
Plus, 2 games on DM2 out of all maps? Do that test again with atleast 50 games on DM2/DM3/E1M2.

Dont wanna nag here but that "test" is about as flawed as it gets because of the low sample amount.

I think that bogojoker didn't want to demonstrate a scientific experiment, he was only giving examples of his personal experience on low vs high ping games, which is the same as mine and many others who have experienced the same.



Well, who knows? Guessing or predicting things in quakeworld isn't that easy, is it?

Wow. Why don't you just come out and say that you think QW should only be allowed in Europe and other competitors are not allowed?

Americans did not ask Europeans to ping up a single time during EQL matches. Not because of rules, but because the tournament is named "European Quake League" and they understand that.

However, Ocoini is organizing a new tournament, in a time where the QW climate is a bit different. I'd like to see it be a fun tournament for players around the world. You seem to only want it to be good for Europeans. I hope the admins are more open than you.

Good players have proven they are willing to play at a higher ping (above 50) for competitive games. kingpin, Rikoll, BuLaT, bps, and niw to name a few.



You consistently incorrectly judge the skill of players, so please don't even try here.

In your most recent predictions for SunSpawn3 you predicted BLooD_DoG's team would be last and Carapace's team first. BD's team actually won one map in the exchange. You cannot blame it on lineup, your predictions were just way off.
http://www.quakeworld.nu/news/929/sunday-spawnfragging-3-4on4-draft-l

I actually would like to hear why you think this!

As a spectator, do you think it would make a tournament worse? If so, how?
Do you think an experienced player playing at 90 ping would be less fun to watch?

(Edited 2015-04-30, 03:48)

Lets not give eu too much credit on the even(hard quotation on even) ping win.. We had Ivan, give us any other person we win. (sorry ivan still love you) but yes, that is all.

I guess it depends on whether quakeworld has an international community or not, and an appreciation for a competitive environment opposed to imbalance. If it does, then pings would be balanced in international tournaments to at least the lowest ping of the team that suffers the most. People can spout as much BS as they want to protect their precious 12ms, but the plain truth is still there to see all the same.

Bogo you have to realize that the EU part of the scene is larger and that is why you have to play with high ping.
If USA/Canada had a larger player base we, as a global scene, wouldnt have this problem. Now you guys can take part in our tournaments and we think it is fun that you do but dont ask ppl in EU to go over 50.

Why do you think I want to exclude anyone? I just think going over 50 is too much in order to satisfy an even smaller base of player influx from USA/CAN.

Going over 50 makes the game choppy and so much less playable that the fun goes away completely. That being said, it still looks like it is possible for some ppl to play with pings between 50-150 and thats good for them. Still cant believe how squeeze, bd and sane can play so well on those pings. they are good players for sure.

And yeah, predictions might be off here and there but what I said about that USA-EU example you posted is the truth. I cant even believe how you can think that the US/CAN team would win that game on LAN pings.

Praxismo: thats exactly what I said. EQL rules is to ping up to the lowest ping of the team that has the worst ping.

(Edited 2015-04-30, 06:41)

If it wasnt a "scientific experiment" then how can he call the outcome "very telling" and "the scoreboards make that obvious"?
Two maps of QW doesnt say shit, especially on DM2 where the start spawns for example are crucial to the outcome, especially in a mix game like this.
Thats why I think you need to play 50-100 games (statistically you need 1000 tho) on each of the maps with the two different conditions in place in order to draw any conclusions at all. So thats between 300-600 maps if you do this on TB3 only but I would recommend 6000 maps in total.

How I read that: "Players X, Y, and Z you have to wear handcuffs if you want to play with my group of friends."

This is a discussion about rules for tournament that aren't yet set in stone.

I'm encouraging a ruleset that will have more competitive and fair games between Europeans and non-Europeans, which by your own admission would be rare.

Here is an analogy: "Some players will need to be blind folded. Maybe some of the other players should wear eye patches."

Keep in mind analogies are not perfect. But this simplifies the discussion.

I've roughly said, "I expect to play blind folded. I don't want anyone to have to wear eye patches or be blind folded like me. However, sometimes playing me without at least an eye patch is not fair. What are your thoughts about making this a more fair contest?"

You've said, "Wearing an eye patch is itchy.", and that is perfectly okay. The funny thing is, you would not be asked to wear an eye patch.

We haven't heard from players who might play with eye patches.

I disagree. It is more subtle than that.

Here are the EQL rules as they exist right now:
http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql19/static.php?view=rules#7.2



The 3rd and 4th bullets makes it clear to me that, if you are playing against an American team, the only time you would ever need to play higher then 51 ping is if you ping higher than 51 to a UK/NL server. But you can never be asked to ping higher than 51. Even if the opponents all ping over 100.

Do others read this differently?

No, thats correct and it is also how i interpret that rule. I mean i agree with what you post here, the stuff you quoted me on was me being lazy.

(Edited 2015-04-30, 09:58)

Pinging up to 50 is a handicap, or atleast half an eye patch in your example. I would play with 50 but not above. Keep in mind I dont even have 12 ms in Sweden. I have 38-42 on all swe/no/dk/fi servers. So the discussion isnt about protecting some holy 12ms as someone suggested.

...

(Edited 2015-07-27, 01:35)

Okay!

I'll reply to all ping things once i have time to read everything =)

About the maps - thinking about making map pool only include two new maps, so it's not to much to learn. I would like two new maps to be played.

Heres my suggestion list of maps for the pool. I think this would include all the top maps played in tournaments:

(TB3) + e1m3, e1m5, e2m2, e3m7, cmt1b, cmt2,cmt3,cmt4.

So if we could agree on two new maps from this pool that would be cool. Posting your reply here about the maps would be considered a vote, whatever you chose

e2m2. cmt3 ! <3

e2m2. cmt3 ! <3

timeless2! I've yet to see it played 4on4, but it looks large enough.

Comments on the map pool.

My suggestion: introduce only one custom. Getting the community to learn/practice a new map is an incredible accomplishment. Fight the temptation to be too ambitious. A single map offers plenty of opportunity for learning and improvement.

I'd be interested in seeing other maps besides those mentioned in the OP that might make good 4v4 maps. Where can I find this Endless2 map that Bogo mentioned? Are there any other obscure maps which might be suitable?

Comments on Spawn Fragging #3 predictions.

I enjoy reading Hooraytio's (or anyone else's) predictions, mid-season reports, and recaps. I believe lots of others do as well. They give leagues and tournaments a sense of narrative and drama that might not be apparent to spectators or even players. They're good for the community. I can forgive the occasional off prediction. They are predictions after all.

Comments on ping rules for this tournament.

I believe the proposed maximum ping-up to 50 ms is too low. Hooraytio speaks as if this EQL rule is self-evident and set in stone, but it's not. The tournament organizers decide this.

As a spectator, I would much rather watch two evenly-pinged players/teams even if one player/team needs to delay_packet. Is there any compelling argument otherwise?

As a referee/mod, with an interest in integrity and tournament fairness, I would also prefer to see games between evenly-pinged players. A tournament should do its utmost to be as fair as possible to all players. Otherwise, how much of a tournament is it, really?

Many low ping players suggest that HPB's are more accustomed to high ping, making it unfair to ping up to equal pings. There is a small element of truth to this, but it is way overblown. You never really adapt to most aspects of high ping, you just learn to live with them. I can play at 130 ms for all of eternity, but I'm still going to quadbore and all the other things on Bogojoker's list way too often. Most of the so-called adaptation to high ping is simply progression through the five stages of grief.

- Denial that your ping is really that bad.
- Anger at the high ping as you lose match after match and reality sets in.
- Bargaining. If only I had a better ISP. If only I lived in Europe.
- Depression at how ineffective your play is at high ping, and how little there is you can do.
- Acceptance and coping with your latency, and learning to enjoy the game as much as you can.

A select few make it to the fifth stage of HPB grief, but there is no magic spell here to make those few HPB's play better. It's just a matter of acceptance. Acceptance that high ping sucks. Requiring HPB's to play against LPB's is much less fair than requiring those LPB's to ping up.

As a player, I prefer playing with as low of a ping as possible. But I also want to deserve my win. Winning against an HPB as an LPB just feels empty. If playing a European or Brazilian on an American server, I always ping up. I wish more players would adopt this mentality. Don't forget that for every LPB refusing to ping up, there is by definition a higher-ping player on the server who has consented to play both (1) with a high ping, and (2) at great disadvantage.

In conclusion.

With all that said, my suggested rule on ping would be roughly: the lower-ping team pings up to as much as 90 ms if needed to equalize pings.

This would only be an incremental improvement. It wouldn't be enough to ensure fair play for Brazilian and West Coast U.S. players in the UK, but it would help get us closer to that goal.

The spectators would benefit. The fairness/integrity of the tournament would benefit. The higher-pinging team would benefit. And, if they are concerned with fairness, lower-pinging players would benefit as well.

And finally, just ask yourselves: would it really be the end of the world if, someday, tournament rules were to actually make it possible for an American or Brazilian team to win a tournament they've entered?

As the QW scene grows smaller, inter-continental players take up more and more significant roles in these tournaments. It'd be really nice if we could someday progress to the point where pinging up isn't seen as a "favor" done by an LPB for an HPB, but as an automatic act of decency and gamesmanship.

You probably already have locs for timeless2. It is available on usa.besmella.com:28501, but I'll host it here for a bit:
http://bogojoker.com/dump/qw/timeless2.bsp
http://bogojoker.com/dump/qw/timeless2.loc




Yeah, I was too harsh on Hooraytio here. I apologize. I enjoy reading them.

Considering how extremely well team ANUS has been doing in the Draft, if we EU's ping up to 90 or whatever, we are totally lost. Tried to play some games the other night with 100 ping and my performance was 20% of my capacity. We are just now used to it as you are. Im just beeing realistic here, forcing EU players to ping up that much will just cause a idle tourney..... mark my words... =E , on the other hand, its fucking amazing how well you guys can play with that ping, i was totally lost.

A considerable amount of time, money, dedication was (and is) invested in making tri-continental games possible and fun.

Nowadays most EU players can ping 90/100 or less to NYC or Miami servers. Which is perfectly reasonable, and its fast to get used to. ofc it's not the same feeling as 26ms, but its good enough to have fun.