it's not about helping the newbs, actually, newbs don't care about death messages to an extent. They realise about their power with gaining the experience, and then they learn to read them, with the same significance as team messages

But as coloured TBs helps newbs to control this better, this deathmsgs would increase the speed they pay attention to it. Believe me, my mates are almost all noobs, but they like coloured tbs much more.

I got inet connection in mid of 2004 and started playing online, so i'm not so Hardcore.
I don't abandon those new features. Of course, its great when ppl grow faster. Just don't use it in official games.
My point is: don't do this game easier for newbs. Do some features for help newbs to improve faster.

i think the biggest problem here is to miss some important teamchat msgs because default deathmsgs spam the crap out of the console notifylines, i know some smartpants will say "raise the con_notifylines value then", ok try to play with more than 4 lines of spamming console onto ur screen !!!

speaking on how this will affect the players: high div players are already used to the old system and they dont give a crap either (its just a feature, u dont need to use if u dont want to !!)... for low div and new upcomming players, it will simplify reading the msgs without getting hammered by the spamming deathmsgs, so it will improve and encourage teamplay... but as i said before, ITS JUST A NEW FEATURE, DONT USE IF DONT WANT TO !!


erm... am i lost here or u just agreed with this feature but u didnt want to !? this will help ppl to improve ur teamplay faster AND wont let the game easier at all... so what if u can split deathmsgs and teamchat if u cant aim or move !!!

In pracs do what you want.
Wanna use aimbot, do it.
Wanna use radar and wallhack - you r welcome.
If it all help you to improve.
Just don't use it in official games.

I playing with 8 notifylines.
ITS JUST A NEW CHEAT, DONT USE IF DONT WANT TO !!

B1aze: You should realise that some people do want to make the game easier for newbies, but only in this one particular thing! So stop comparing it to radar, aimbot, etc.

I think they don't find reading the verbose console challenging enough. When someone comes to you and asks you "What is so challenging about Quakeworld?" among other things, do you mention "reading not simple console output"? Your answer here must be "yes" if you are serious in what you are saying here. On the beginning you've said "Its GREAT skill a read messages in right way." I'd like to know more about this. Is really reading verbose console output so much deep in the heart of QW that it would make many pandas sad trying to avoid it?

Imagine you've never played QW and someone tells you: "one of the things you will have to learn is to read verbose console output". Would this motivate you to play QW? Everybody likes to learn movement, tactics, prediction, .... It's hard but that's why you play the game, it's fun. That's why I'm not asking anyone here if speedjumping should be simplified.

This sounds like issues i had with my netquake client, whereas I made seperate talk sounds for mm1 and mm2. Also cl_mute was used to toggle the sounds of mm1 or all messages, atleast this way if my teammate said something i'd hear a different sound which would cue me into reading the message. Also, in my mod's i've changed death "sounds" from gloabl to ATTN_NORM which means you dont hear the gib sound across the map, but only nearby, so deathmessages were sometimes ignored.

Yet this is all QW unreleated (specifically) but I'd say seperate/movable message panel for team death/talk messages would be cool and a step forward for player customization, without adding 2cents to strategic advantage.

Okay B1aze.
I'll freeze con_notifylines at value 4 since less or more can be used as newbies to grow faster :E.

This is the best argument ever!

--//--

We can take the same line of thought used for cl_clock! If you can not stop player from using external timers, why not give them a built-in one?

Can we stop teammates from using voice chat programs? I don't see how and I bet all major DIV1 teams use it! So why not give all players a better message system?

I think that this is a great idea. You play any modern (ish) game and the death messages are separate from the teamtalk and have clear, concise icons to make them easy to read. YES this feature will change the way death message reading effects qw a little, mainly because more people would be able to do it. But like someone said, its what you do with that information that makes the real difference. Also you can turn it on or off, its up to you.

The problem with quakeworld is people are so elitest and devout players that they cant bear to see aspects of quakeworld change, whether its for good or bad. Arguments about features or changes have always occured but never so petty as they are now. Any new idea mentioned that could help keep qw alive and attract new players are picked apart as cheats before they even test them.

If you are all so against updated versions of quake and there is enough of a 'following' in this, then maybe certain leagues should be kept to running qw 2.33 without qizmo, heck why not even stick to the old faithful game and play dos quake only ffs.

This game is OLD and although many still play it, many are leaving (for whatever reasons) and the community will continue to shrink unless dedicated people like the ezquake team battle to find ways to keep qw fun, up to date and enjoyable to play. The fact that this game has been played for 10 years mean the skill levels are extremely high, higher than most games. Now whilst most people dont find it a problem, and they are happy with the clients and way qw is played, it is very difficult for anyone to learn the game. It's just too much for most people. The game is old technology therefore certain things in the game (like the console) are things that can be changed to keep with modern fps games. It doesnt change the entire fabric of qw so it's a great idea, and also another thing that can help people find qw easier to learn and play - thus keeping the community strong.


Put it this way, 5+ years ago qw was a completely different game. Skills were different, clients different, features, league rules and also what things were allowed/dissallowed. If people then prevented the game moving forward as it has, we would still play the game in the same way. Features like the one in this topic will be a small contribution to keeping the game going and helping it imrove and survice the next year/few years.



I think its a brilliant idea and think that no argument can dispute it, and if people try then they are stuck in the past and cant let the game move forward. They should look at their configs and setups to see what they are using that wouldnt have been allowed years ago.


</rant> sorry for the essay.

o and the thing i think that will really help people come to qw and keep playing it would be a full UI like unreal tournament where you can configure and run every aspect of the game easily. You have to admit scripting things in config files is something that can deter n00bs and isnt really necessary in this day and age.

How do I enable this feature?

I totally agree with bandog in any point.

amen

I think this thread's original discussion is pretty much done, but I'd like to continue from what bandog started.

Having a nice menusystem for setting up gl_ cl_ r_ con_ src_ hud_ etc options would really make it a lot easier for people to come in and actually realize the power and configurability behind the clients they are using. I just started playing again 2 months~ ago and even though I love configging, it was a big task to actually grasp the whole that is the current client feature set.

For starters, the configs nowadays (with advanced team messages) are about 2000 lines+ I think it's really great that ezquake has the describe feature to help with all the commands without having the manual open all the time, but still, it's really far from the ease of just going through options menus and setting things up. We might even want to have an option where you have Basic view and Advanced view, because even with a nice menu system the amount of commands is too much to get in your lap right away.

From what I understand, creating those menus isn't _that_ hard and I really don't know why it hasn't been done (yes some clients have had some options in menus, but they were pretty limited). I would actually imagine that you could generate those menus after you give each command some extra metadata: menu_parent, name, options[x,y,z], <Basic view>. It would be even easier if all the commands starting with x_ would be directly tied to one area of options, but semantically that isn't the case atm.

And then it would be really nice if you could do it kinda like this:

________________
| name options |
| name options |
| name options | <- scrolling possible
| name options |
| name options |
| name options |
-------------------
| Description of | <- always here if descriptions are enabled
| current option |
-------------------

This would work kinda like frames or scrollable layers in html so that if all the options don't fit you can simply scroll down and the description frame will stay in the same place.

I might have to post this somewhere else unless the ezq devels still read this But a couple of questions to wrap things up:
- Is this hard to do in a coding sense, or does it just need a lot of manual work in creating the menus?
- Is there something I and others not already involved could do to help? I don't know what level of coding is required for this, but I'm not much of a C coder anyway :/

i don't like it. it's not qw anymore if this will get real :<
i mean, atleast not the same good ol' qw-feeling...

Heh, the same qw feeling that has been changing for 10 years ? And once again: you don't have to use this feature. Even I might not use it after trying as I am so used to the current system, but that doesn't stop me from supporting the feature :/

This is actually one of the smallest features I've ever read so much discussion about. At least back in the day we were arguing about real shit like:
- modified shaft models
- fairpacks
- fullbright skins
- advanced trigger automated scripting

And maybe I should say that the current qw doesn't feel like qw anymore because we aren't playing dm3 with dmm3 tp3 nopw and everybody camping at rl / bridge

I guess even the qw crowd is getting old because so far we've been one of the most progression positive crowds in gaming :F

agreed

tell that to netquakers. har-har-har =))

maybe this will split the Quake community again.

- netquakers
- qw'ers with normal obituary messages
- and.. ohnoes! evil monstermen quakers with custom hax0r1ng obituary messages.. run!!

like i said before and as aquashark kinda said, if you dont like the features then stick to the clients/client versions you like and play away.
Netquakers didnt like qw so they stayed there, fair play to em. Just dont hold back the rest of the community for it.

And niomic, great ideas for the UI, hope this can move on to be discussed futher and maybe some people take the coding on!

QuakeWorld, the fastest FPR ever (FPR = First Person Reader) O_o

I like r_tracker feature. It looks neat and provide a more efficient and logical screen space usage, which is great.

The only problem is that it's kind of hard for a seasoned player to adopt this new style. I am playing qw since 1999 and get used to standard messages to such extent that with r_tracker I actually missing information about kills.
Standard style messages are longer and much easier to capture and interpret with periferal vision, so I never miss anything.

But anyway, I like it, so I am willing to learn and adopt. I recommend other players to get more positive and progressive attitude and stop denying new features.

And personal thanks to kukushka for implementing r_tracker.

Word!

Btw, actually that not me implement tracker it self, I just add r_tracker_frags 2 which made it useful for real game, and few tracker variables which allow configure it more widely.

This is a great addition.

Concerning config-menu, I believe it'd be a lot easier to have an external program for designing the hud. Mostly since the QW-menu doesn't have an click-and-play interface like newer games. It'd be very nice to be able to move stuff around with the mouse (or keyboard for that matter) while testing different hud-icons, consolefonts and such in realtime.

A plugin seems like an idea solution for this.

the cpma hud editor is great. soemthing like that would rock hard.
oops, gotta keep it on topic ;P er, r_tracker is cool with me!!

I definitely won't be using this since it detracts from what I consider the real QW feeling. BUT - (and here's where I differ from, say, flintheart och B1aze above) I see no reason to ban it.
"Waah waah, if this is allowed REAL QW [tm] is dead!"
Bollocks. Compare what we have today to what people played with back in '97 and tell me it's the same thing. All this whine about REAL QW reminds me (to make an inflammatory comparison, teeheehee) of conservatives and xenophobes talking about the Good Old Days, and Traditional Values and Swedish Culture.
We're all evolving, QW is not a static thing. If it was we'd still be playing fov 90, dmm1 games on dm1.

Today we have custom huds, tons and tons of eyecandy, gameclocks, fullbrights, scripts and aliases and leds and charsets and fuck me this is ridicilous.

I think these death messages are a great thing if they help attract new players to the scene. Way too many oldschoolers are contect to play TB3 among their ever fewer mates in a withering scene, and pretend like "it's ok, this is what REAL QW [tm] is all about!". (incidentally, it's not like TB3 is some venerable tradition. Back in the old days all eXmX were fair game. How come only TB3 are REAL QW [tm] these days?)

Those who like this feature can use it. Those who dislike it (like me) can keep using old death messages and all is fine and dandy.

What. is. the. god. damn. problem. here?

(sorry for the messy argumentation and typos and stuff, no time to proofread this crap. back to work)

a-fuckin-men lib, well said. Just backs up my post on the thread about fakeshaft in response to error's posts.
Couldn't agree more and couldn't say it any better myself.

EDIT: and just in case people don't know what i'm talking about i have played this game since qtest and the demo, so i've seen the game evolve and grow and change, and seen all of these kind of arguments towards new features happen time and time again. Yawn is all I'll say...

^^ ditto

imho all things must get better with time, otherwise death comes. And this seems a nice addition, allow this for next nqr please.
all other arguments are retarded

It's a great idea and this do more cool at qw. Im much happy with this possible modification.

Other great chang, add damage sound for shaft as in cpma !!!! Please !!!!