But they already can! Damnit, sir, they already can.

Sure, but the current "solution" does not prevent cheating.

1) You have no Google skills

I just googled "quakeworld cheats" and it was all either dead links or unrelated. Could you find any live ones?

You forget that no one makes cheats for this game anymore (and publicly distributes them). You will not find them on web sites, just floating around. And if you do, they are either horrible, outdated cheats which people will be able to spot in half a second, or they are entire quake.exe replacements. Either way, they are obsolete and don't serve any purpose today.

The security module effectivly stops me from cheating because it makes sure i'm using a modern client and not something like kl33nex (bad example but you get it). I actually have a client on my machine called "animal farm" quake, which originated in TeamFortress. If I were to use that, no one would know I cheated (because of its design and my knowledge of how to use it), but I wouldn't be reporting myself as ezquake (would I?).

Like I said, if you are here to make quake better like you claim, why not help ezquake's portability? The amount of time you spend on this thread (and a few more in the past) and constantly updating the patches/website (though it may not take much time) will probably equal the time it takes you to fix a program so other people can take benefit from it. And as for the security module, I agree that is something that must be updated for all operating systems. I don't know why they haven't been, so I can't give an answer, except that I will talk to the devs.

Well, thank you for proving my point once again. Nobody cares to cheat. It's a non-issue.


Thank you for proving my point twice in one post.


Thank you for proving my point for the third time.


No it does not.


So, you type f_version. Does this "Kl33nex" or "Animal Farm" report themselves as being Ezquake? Nope. There you go, all the cheat protection you need.


Because if I want to make QW better (and I do), Ezquake is not a good starting point. Too much work to clean it up after a few years of people playing random "let's throw code at it".


I think you underestimate just how messy Quake is. If you think it takes just a few hours to "fix", you're way, way, WAY off base. Sorry.

Its unfortunate that there is no port to your platform but you have found a way to bypass the security check. Why dont you use it? Im sure no one would mine.

For the record I havent used the security module in 1-2 years.

blablabla...

This is rather an issue that should be discussed with either Engine/Mod Developers or admins of the leagues, no?

Kill bigfoot, save QW!
Or force him to do better security.
Any! program or algo can be hacked.
I hacked RSA 660bit a year ago. And? RSA still used by millions people.
Some companies still do new versions of protectors.
Its infinite war between companies who did protectors vs hackers who crack it.
Print all this thread. Get all this paper, go to toilet room and use it.
It will be better than read all this stuff.

Bigfoot: I was refferring to words "silly and stupid" which you used when talking about my friends who are trying their best to organize good 2on2 tourney.
Why module is not useless is explained in my first post here. The epsilon thing, perhaps you remember. Yes, you lowered the epsilon by publishing the crack.
The rest is not worth of replying, storm in a glass of water.

Spike: The reality is that in current QW you can play without security module and if you kindly ask your opponent about this, he will not complain. Again, storm in a glass of water. I will add into manual that security modules don't give you 100% confidence that the opponent is not cheating, but if you think that this will change something, you have really lost the touch with the reality. Update: "It's purpose is to increase the probability that the opponent is not using any cheats but the probability never will be 100% when playing games over internet."

The only thing I am concerned about is when more people will start playing QW and some lamers will start using bigfoots cracks. I presume that he will continue on publishing them. Why? I explained to him why I think that there is a good point in creating them, and that I welcome any help with making them harder to be cracked. There WAS an agreement between us. And some months later he published another crack...
So I'm concerned about such scenario, because games like AOE2 are already dying not because there ARE cheaters, but because there is A LOT OF cheaters. Security module tries to decrease their ammount, bigfoot is increasing it.

That is as I see it today, but perhaps it's me who has completely missed some point and FTE guys will show me their better approach to avoid the scenario described in here.

Ye whatever, to the point ->


Yeah, the 100% security DILEMA. NP, noone really wants ezquake 100% cheatproof. BUT cheatproof to a reasonable point? That's something. If you're so sure you're right and the ezquake devs are wrong, why dont you MAKE ANOTHER STEP and add an aimbot to some ezquake release with a passable security module check?


Beggars cant be chosers. Want better? Write one. I'm still quite happy with what i got tho.


But it does enough so since i play QW (4 years) there have been 2 persons using aimbots (ilf and lamerpro). That's much less than in any other popular fps game. Yeah, the result is not 100% thanks to the module itself, but i guess without it it would have been much worse without it. Cuz how hard is it to write an aimbot? ~10 lines of code?


Didnt know 5-10 ppl is a lot, maybe i got the bad data. Dont get the wrong idea, i'ts not like i'm "sacrificing" those players. BUT i think you dont have a point here. The fact, that the solution restricts someone is because of the practical faults. The problem is not in the theoretical concept of the module, thus i dont think it can be blamed.


Potential coders who wish to grant more security ARE NOT OBLIGED to use the existing security module. Write one from scratch, it's not like you're missing a lot.

Educate the user, get the user to moan about any stupid tournament rules. On the download page. Not the documentation page which the users will never read.
As it is, the download page appears to claim it to be as good as commercial third-party stuff. You'll never get it that hard to break.


Stop releasing a linux version. bigfoot _hates_ windows. He won't use it for long enough.
I already mentioned a couple of tricks to disconnect to make it non-trivial to crack, though it was a while ago and I've not spoken to him since.
I can't make it foolproof. I could raise the bar, sure, but it would still take me longer to write than it would for someone to crack.
I've started writing a security module three times now. Each time I've stopped when I've realized how trivial it is to get around each approach. I just don't have the patience.

Bigfoot: You realize you'll never be allowed to play in most tournaments now anyway, right?

There are plenty of good ports of good Quake and Quakeworld clients to my platform. That's not the problem.


Well, nevermind if they mind, it's not like they'd find out anyway. Blind faith rocks

And the general QW community. But the engine developers are busy trying to insult me instead of looking at the problem, so uhm...

As I said, you misread. Allow me to quote myself:

I am _not_ blaming the organisers of the tournament, I _am_ blaming the general blind faith, the misinformation and the traditions. They're just doing as everyone else, they're not inventing something new.


If you put a sock in your pocket, the chance of you dying from a traffic accident has been reduced to 99.99999951616% of what it was before. After all, the sock might take enough of the impact to not fatally injure some internal organ. You're putting yourself at risk by not putting a sock in your pocket when leaving home.


You make it sound like I did some sort of cheat. All I did was make it possible for someone who wants to use Ezquake to fix it to actually work on Linux and still be able to play in tournaments. Good deed done, eh?


The "security" module tries to do sod all. It's not even trying to prevent any already known cheats. Future cheats will of course completely circumvent it, and unlike you try to make it sound, it's not like I'm some fantastic super being who is the only one who can do a search and replace in a hex editor. Seriously. Start hex editor, open "security" module, look for /proc/self/exe, replace by /tmp/ezcracked, put unmodified Ezquake binary in /tmp/ezcracked, run modified binary and, uhm, "security module initialised". Yeah, that took all of 3 minutes if you're slow. And pretty much anyone can do it.

Unfortunately everyone keeps believing that the "security" module is "secure", as also witnessed within this thread. Even when it is so god damn simple to break it, and even after it has been shown, people still believe it. But hopefully a few less believe it.


You see problems where there are none, and you see solutions where there are none.

How serious


Because cracking the "security" module is so bloody easy and it has been done before by other people, yet it is being denied. Cracking it publically might actually make some people realise that not only can the idea not work, the implementation is also laughable. Unlike what Johnny seems to claim, I am not making cheats, I don't want to make cheats and I don't want to help cheaters.

The "security" module does not really help prevent cheats (sock in pocket), but it DOES prevent people from playing tournaments on the computer they have and like.


I have one, and I did improve one. Why do you keep mentioning Ezquake? You seem to be obsessed with it.

My problem is not a lack of a Quakeworld client, nor a lack of a good Quakeworld client.


Indeed. And how hard is it to do it without the "security" module complaining? Also ~10 lines of code.


Chicken and egg problem. You don't see people using other platforms in tournaments becase... *drumroll* they're not allowed to enter them.


Heh, indeed

But then, either it would have to be compatible with the old one (= boring reverse engineering work) or everybody would have to agree to use CoolMan's "security" module.

Oh, the irony

When i read the post where Up2nOgOoD[ROCK] prooved your point like five times it struck my mind that people "don't want to cheat" because they don't know how to cheat? Or that it's even possible? :p Even if the ezQuake (and everyone else's) security implementation is flawed, i still think it's better than nothing.

Spike: We welcome any help with "raising the bar", you know that. I agree that comparision to "punkbaster" and "anticheat" is something very simplyfied, I'll try to think how to say what security module is in a different way.

Bigfoot: Blaming NNQL people of something like that is coward thing. If your argumentation skills are not high enough to change minds of NQR or EQL people, then be quiet? NNQL is just two people that never run a tournament before and they have different difficulties then bother with your problems. They follow what big leagues do and that's the best way they could choose. I understand you didn't mean it personal, ok. Usually the rules are written as a self-defense of the league admins themselves to have some backup for their actions, therefore rules are usually much more strict then how they are applied in real.

Your comparision with socks was maybe funny but didn't show anything, at least not that my epsilon argumentation is wrong. Again - We welcome any help with "raising the bar". I appreciate that while wasting my time in this thread, two people offered they will help with making the security module better protected in linux. You also promised that back then, perhaps you remember. But what have you really done? I'm trying my best to be good our at least neutral with you, but you are not making it easy.

I have had shown to me an aimbot that is actually a whole new client but completely mimics ezquake/fuhquake. It passed all security checks I could think of, and looked and behaved suprisingly realistic, to the point it would be hard to prove.

Now developers of ezquake/fuhquake could probably spot it rather quickly, but to the 'average gamer with no knowledge of coding etc' to losely quote up2, you would know nothing. So 'proving you're using a modern client' is thrown out of the window and faustov's request has been done already.

As with tournament rules and the limitations of linux and ezquake with security modules etc, this whole side of things needs to be sorted imho. We will argue till the cows come home about whether or not the security module prevents cheating or any kind or not, so lets leave that be, but focus on how the incompatibility issues can be fixed with some kind of agreement by all parties who want to be involved and no 'i can prove it' hax or patches.

Ye, it is quite clear that the means of security provided by ezquake have been broken. Question is, what do we do now? Bigfoot says equake devs can do better. Ezquake devs say they cant and are waiting for help from Bigfoot. He says he doesnt like ezquake. We get nothing except the fact the probability to encounter a cheater is higher now. So, in total, bg over gg?

That's not true. First - disconnect mainly focused on windows version and didn't improve linux version because of lack of time, second we already got other offers to help.

when did johnny_cz insult you? you are the one making this a "they vs us" reality.

Also, what engine do you expect him to focus on if not ezquake? FTE? FTE has bugs, and is missing a lot of features pro gamers need.

Allow me to quote myself (again):

I don't know what to more I can say to make it even more clear. Oh well.


You seem to lose track of things very fast. Did you forget why I initially responded to it? Nope, it was not because "NNQL is just two people that never ran a tournament before", neither is it because I can't "change minds of NQR or EQL people". Nope, it wasn't just because of an insane requirement either, because most tournaments have that. Nope, well, once again, allow me to quote myself (but this time quoting the NNQL rules):


No, I responded to this because of the insanity in what is written in the rules. I must admit I didn't check lately, but AFAIK, neither the NQR nor the EQL rules claim that the "security" module makes cheating impossible, neither directly nor indirectly.


Ah, so some people are allowed to cheat, but others aren't?


Nope, not wrong, just irrelevant and misleading.


Fuck no I did. I'd like to see a quote on that (and then after that I will admit myself to a mental institution)


Doesn't seem like it. The random attacks and snide remarks kind of suggests that you don't like me and don't mind showing it. Which is fair enough, but it just doesn't belong in a (at least sort of) technical discussion.

Yeah, they can. But they refuse to. Don't blame me for that.


Bollocks. (see above for why)


Bad game, because people aren't learning the lesson.

Random picks. OK, maybe not that bad, but when the first thing he says is "You are not contributing anything useful", the bar has kind of been set. He's not interested in discussing the issue, he's interested in telling me to bugger off.


OK.


None? It has nothing to do with any particular QW client.


Yeah, Ezquake is bug free

But you are NOT contributing anything useful. You have made your point. We understand that the security module is not secure and has numerous flaws. We get it. We understand. Security module not so secure. Got it.

Now try to understand that while it's not very secure, it's an epsilon-step (I like how johnny put it) towards security. That's all. It is my opinion that the community agrees with this (start a poll if you want, I am curious). So I guess we have the following options:

1) You can continue on with your crusade, have it resurface whenever there's a new tournament or new ezquake release, and keep updating your cheat-enabling patch so you could "help" the community
2) Accept it and keep quiet (and possibly help making the sec module epsilon better)
3) Don't accept anything and leave the community.
4) Come up with an alternate option since it's apparent you like arguments.

The choice is yours. Whether you stay or leave, the community will live on and use ezQuake's security module until something better comes along. Because a little is better than nothing. THE END.


Edit: this is what my previous post was referring to:


He keeps mentioning ezquake because it's the standard for several reasons. Yes, it has bugs. But show me one program that doesn't.

That's nice. now you just need to stop talking like it _can_ be secure.


The whole thing reminds me of airport "security". Disallowing water, baby food, breast milk, shampoo, etc really does keep me more safe. It's an epison-step!!!!. See, with no water, I cannot be drowned while flying. With no baby food, I can't choke in it. With no breast milk... Er, well, I guess I can't drown in that either now. Oh, and my eyes can't get irritated by the shampoo. So hey, I'm more secure! Now you try to find a better solution to keeping shampoo out of my eyes!

Oh, and BTW, we welcome you aboard with those 4 boxes of matches. Feel free to start a fire anywhere you like.


You've lost the plot, haven't you?

Let's try again. Well, I'm tired of quoting myself, actually. Go back and read the previous posts, please. The whole line is complete bollocks.


Accept it, say "sucks to be you", let you live in your own dream world and enter tournaments with my 100% genuine Ezquake hackcheatwarp-proof anti-cheat smart security module?

Well, no, the original problem (please read what is being written) was that this tournament had rules which I can best be expressed like this:

Well, NNQL is gonna be one easy tournament to cheat in.


Uh, yeah, like I'm gonna stop playing Quake because a few persons take themselves too seriously and can't handle logic nor reality? Luckily there are plenty of sane QW players


Oh, I've come up with PLENTY, and SEVERAL in this thread. Please read what I write? Please? I beg you?

I'm repeating myself here, and you keep ignoring me.


Thank you for flying with Air France, we wish you a pleasant day.

(And no, "a little" is not better than "nothing" when "a little" means that people are being excluded from tournaments for no reason at all. You still refuse to see the bad side of the pointless thing)



Please stay coherent:



So, "it has bugs" is a good argument to use against FTE (for no reason at all), but against Ezquake it isn't? Mmmmmmmmm'kay.

bigfoot you are quite arrogant.

an epsilon step to security is better than no security.

Why do you wear a seatbelt? It could always rip and you could fly out through your windshield and die. Why do construction workers wear hardhats at the site? They can still fall off several hundred feet and plummet to their death. Why do ... you (hopefully) get the idea.


ITS A SMALL STEP TOWARDS SECURITY, NOT TOTAL SECURITY. Please show me in my thread where I said, no, even MENTINOED that we can have total security. This is your first objective; show this to me.

Second objective: come up with ONE thing that is completely secure. ONE thing. If you get tired of doing this, you can have an alternate for your second objective: find any of a billion things people do to try and make things more secure, knowing full well it will never be completely secure. A billion is a bit unreasonable. Go for infinite.

and I was completely coherent. Let me summarize for you: Your reply to Faustov (thread 44) asks why he is obsessed with ezQuake. I replied why shouldn't he be, since there are no alternatives (and I also mentioned FTE as a safeguard in case you brought up FTE). Then I disproved your point before you could even make it by stating the fact that FTE has bugs. This may be unclear to you, (I didn't think it would be since you are ON THE FTE TEAM) but FTE has many incomplete features, critical bugs, and lacks very important features for modern gamers. Then you brought up the fact that ezQuake also has bugs. I don't know what you mean by this (or atleast how it relates to our discussion), perhaps you were confused by my previous statement. Again, ezQuake has bugs, but no where in multitude or maginitude to FTE.


Yes. In fact, I cannot come up with a better reason why. If program A is incomplete, lacks features, and has numerous more bugs than program B, and program B has most of what you want, is updated more (bugs FIXED more), and has less bugs, WHICH ONE WILL YOU CHOOSE?

I can't believe I have to explain to someone of your credentials program usage patterns for the general population. Will you be asking me why people don't like bugs next?

and yes, I am mad. You keep stating we are saying security module is/can be completely secure. Let me dictionary.com epsilon for you:

epsilon: (dictionary.com) Mathematics. an arbitrarily small quantity, used to indicate that a given quantity is small, or close to zero.

CLOSE to zero. Small value. Now let's go back to the statements I (oringally Johnny) made and substitue this definition in for the word "epsilon"...

First, I should say YOU STARTED A CRAPPY TOPIC BIGFOOT! Only thing we can do is to minimize number of cases of cheating. Read it again, MINIMIZE. There is no way to ensure 100% secure tourney. Why? Just look at those security modules you were talking about - if they can be bypassed, whole security can be bypassed, but SECURITY MODULES ARE STILL THE BEST AND ONLY THING WE CAN USE, no matter what are you saying. Or do you have better idea? We will appreciate every kind of effort - except effort to affect our event in any way.

Bigfoot: I'm sick of talking to you. I'm not going to search months old logs or whatever to find out where you agreed with me on something. Imply whatever you want from that. Accusing me from random "attacks on you and sinde remarks" crossed the line. I really tried. Bye.

waaay too much use of [ quote ] tags on this thread :-)

summary is, the guys who start the football match get to choose who plays, if they don't like the look of your boots then you're sent back to the changing rooms