Hehe, yeah that might be going a bit overboard

Interesting distinction between weapon scripts and boomstick/axe scripts. I'm not sure if it's possible to distinguish between the two practically though, but since we're all working hypothetically here, I guess I can let that fly

dakoth: where can i signup?

Soo, let's call it Crippled Quake League, or CQL in short :<

Need to disable cl_weaponhide as well since when that's set to 1, it acts as a sg script. Not sure about triggers such as f_weaponchange (which lets you change settings based on the weapon you switched to).

I like the idea behind removing the weaponscript so that you´d have to change weapon manually, but I would like to keep the fullbrightskins... this ain´t CS you know

word

Oh yeah! Really cool oldschool idea. But, let's also decide we use only qwcl2.30, software 320x240, maxfps 30, rate 2500 and kteams plus qwsv.
We should also disallow qizmo of coz, as it could help to CHEAT with some dynamic revolting teamsays. One should be allowed to use the only proper simple oldschool teamsays. If 101 keys ain't enough then buy better keyboard! MM3 shouldn't be allowed at all as it's the greatest cheat of all and it requires no skill if you don't have to use 238481 teamsays.
We mustn't stop here. Everyone knows optical and laser mouses are cheats so they should be out of the league. It would require so much SKILLLL to shaft >30% again, cool.
Can't wait, will be soooo funnnnnn. When do we start?

Maybe you should give it some better name then "league without cheats" so that you don't get these I3 (ironical idiotic insults).

I'm not sure what to call them with a better word though. That's why I put the " " around the cheats part.

edit: Besides, I can't change the title anyway :/

Sorry for my I3 post then but honestly, I think this idea is very wrong. Theoretically and practically.

Here's the theoretical:
So you wanna split from the ordinary QW tournaments and leagues with cheats-denied. That implies others have cheats allowed. Most people prefer cheats denied anyways - especially in a community as mature as QW's. So i guess if your idea worked, you'd simply offend those, who dont like the idea and decided to stay with the normal QW action (hence the posts about splitting the community). Another thing is that you list some changes - but why them? Maybe i'm too new to QW, but i really dont understand why exactly them.

Practical:

Seeing how busy the ezquake people are nowadays, i doubt you'll ever be able to be 100% sure someone is not ommiting your "cheats". Might work only on a LAN.

Because he wants to turn back the clock to 'what was considered no-cheat' (my guess is around 2000-2002). I have no idea why anyone would want to go back to the rule set of this particular period and not lets say 1997 or the kfjump-days of 2003/2004.

However dakoth brings up a valid point with this discussion. We shouldn't bring in all new feature into competitive game play just because it's new. A discussion and evaluation around things like teamoverlay, enemypentskins and %h teamsays should take place before we accept em in leagues.

I'm not sure how to explain it, really. But I'll give it a shot. Ever since online gaming started, back before quakeworld existed even (and people still played something we now refer to as Real Quake or Normal Quake), there have been people trying their best to gain an advantage over other players. Over time, some of these "cheats", or whatever you wanna call them, became accepted as a standard - simply because it was too hard to enforce rules that restricted them. Even though the times changed, and we now probably can find a way to enforce these rules, people are too set in their ways. It's hard to teach an old dog to sit, that's what they tell me anyway.

This isn't about making a tournament, or even about making people think twice about the game they're playing. It's a question, simply put; Are you using these things because you HAVE to (because you would be at a handicap without them), or because you WANT to?


The practical side of this needs no discussion, for one simple reason; it's just a question. It's not the beginning of a new "branch" of quakeworld. It's. Just. Hypothetical.

ASSUME that there is a practical way to solve it - we don't care what that way is - for the sake of the question.

Amen.

im confused about the "splitting the community". how the hell would this split the scene anyhow if it wouldnt be just a hypothetical question. if there are two tournaments running at the same time, you may join both of them, one of them more to your liking or neither of them. its not like you would be pointed with a gun and people yell at you to choose between one and another - or have i missed something in the "split the scene" argument

Look at the quakeone forum. They have community splitted between two CA servers if i remember correctly. And that arguing and load of bshit on their forum about which one is better - like they can't actually play on BOTH servers, that was pitiful. I'm afraid things like this can happen to QW too...

IT IS ALL JUST HYPOTHETICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For fucks sakes, GET THAT INTO YOUR MIND.

There is no need to fear for a split community because it most likely will never get introduced, it's just an AWARENESS session.

And:
<-------------------------- kk?

Well this is quite interesting to me as I used to be viewed as quite 'conservative' in some circles. By which I mean that in the past I have been against things making tp easier e.g. rj scripts, sg/axe scripts, timers etc.

However some of what you describe, I would find too much to cope with:

-w_switch/b_switch is not cheating, or removing skill from the game, it is just removing an annoyance from the game. Regardless of what weapon scripts I am or am not using, I don't want my weapon choice overridden just because I walked over a backpack or a gun spawned underneath me.
-No weapon fire scripts would just be too tough to play with, I've been using them since even before I played online. That said, I can see how some people regard them as lame/cheating. I don't like sg/axe scripts though as IMO switching away to another weapon when you think you might be in danger is a skill (one reason why in UK leagues and Smackdown 1 we used to play with Fairpacks LST setting - drops last weapon fired).

One further thing I'd like to see banned in such a tourney would be mm3. I kinda liked the old days of mm2 reporting where good messages and using them well was a skill and you didn't have to worry about what the enemy could tell each other, aside from a few specific (typically lanned) clans.
Also, why are fb base skins allowed?

HangTime: First fairpacks proponent I ever see. Check the discussion at http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewpoll.php?pid=28900#p28900 if you want to add your opinions about it.

Yes not a problem. I've been playing qw with the rules you specified since 1998 except I started using FB skins in 2001/2002 I think.

I mean look at Griffin, he does everyting manually and still ownz bitches left and right :-)

Without FB skins you have to use ugly gfx settings to see in shadows and tell apart friend and foe. GL users have a slight disadvantage due to smoother gradients.

I agree regarding the w/b_switch rule actually, but I included practically all rules suggested to me, as that would be the easiest way to get a discussion going about them, to figure out which were too rough and which were just right. I'm kinda on the fence regarding weaponscripts. I'm certainly against axe/sg scripts, but I can't really make up my mind about fire scripts. I'd say they make as big a difference as axe/sg scripts, in that you can select a weapon before you've even picked it up.

Not to mention the technical difficulties in telling one apart from the other when it comes to implementation - fairpacks is a fairly bad solution imo - though we're not bothered with that side in this thread so...


MM3 is practically impossible to stop, just like eggclocks/timers was. Also, I must say it takes a bit of skill to actually play better with mm3. You're giving up a bit of input (sound) for another kind of input. We (GTG) have actually played better with just mm2 in some games than we've ever done with mm3.

Fullbrighting the base skin just removes the ability to hide in shadows; it doesn't grant you any real extra visibility in a properly lit map. Note that I'm not talking about a new skin or anything, just setting the r_fullbrightskins value to 1. I'm of the belief that having a completely fullbright skin (e.g. white) makes it much easier to aim at and hit your opponent, especially while taking fire yourself. This rule was an attempt to fix that without adding the ability to hide in shadows (and effectively slow gameplay down).

I accept that MM3 is virtually impossible to prevent, however as this is a hypothetical no-cheat tourney I just thought I'd throw it out there. It would be more a case of honour, clans who wanna use mm3 shouldn't enter this league

I can't agree on the fb skins thing though. Hiding in shadows may slow the game down but it would also introduce new tactical possibilites and make players less carefree when entering certain areas of the map. Exploiting the lighting in the map would then become a skill and move away from the all-conquering daredevil style of quake whereby players with elite aim can just charge into combat, instantly spot their opponent and let them have it with great vengeance and furious anger. You would also get 'psychological' type situations where players automatically assume that their opponent is going to be hiding in the dark, so they come round the corner all guns blazing towards that location but end up getting faked out.

Of course I like playing with FB skins myself (reduces the need to be a nerd with regard to tweaking gfx settings for visibility) but for this imaginary league which is supposed to have no cheats then it needs to be disabled. There is no way to fb the base skin in qwcl

edit: by the above, I don't mean that anything not in QWCL should be banned. Just stating that 'the way quake is meant to be' is with that poor visibility.

No. And IMHO a feature that the game developer has purposefully put into the game is not a cheat (clear "cheatcodes" etc. excluded). A rocket jump might be something that the developers didn't think of, but b_switch, weapon impulse, or whatever that even has it's own command certainly is not.

I have to disagree, because you wouldn't switch away the weapon "when you think you might be in danger", you switch it away immeadiatly, every time, just in case. So it's just additional annoyance. Dexterousness may be an essential skill to a typist, but in FPS gaming, managing tens of different keys just means that you are concentrating more in the _user interface_, than the actual game. IMHO UI-wise less is more and things that reduce the amount of juggling with keys improve gameplay and should be used.