I was speaking to molgrum today, and I said a few things I'd be meaning to say in public, so I thought I'd say them in public now. I CBF typing it all out again, so here's the email:

sounds great vb!

why not just join KTX project and work on jawnmode in KTX?

so basically you are saying, do whatever you want with anything, as long as you don't call it jawnmode?

Does it make sense to have several people each implementing their own vision of modified game play, instead of having a crew working together on the same mode or are you meaning that he should join ktx-project and work together on jawnmode with others?

Don't get me wrong here, i think that jawnmode is a nice creation by VB, but i think that things included in KTX (who am I to say what should be in ktx??!?) should be open for discussion (for everyone) and development by anyone on that team.

VB, I wasn't aware that jawnmode was your original idea. My bad for that

KTX will gladly reflect any changes you make. I am curious though as to how current implementation of jawnmode in KTX reflects your mod.
You can join #ktx to talk about it or email me

Some background can be gotten from here before you read:
http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewpoll.php?id=1922


I do hope we can work toghether on a gamemode for the kind of gameplay jawnmode was aimed for. The changes I made throughout time were mostly gradual (except for the teleporter thing, that was experimental), for example getting the SNG and SSG right and equal to each other, and getting the armor absorptions right. I always had a reason for the changes I made, sometimes due to request, other times due to consistency and most times due to gamplay principles, but I always kept an open debate about it as you can see.


I'll be glad to test these things out and cooperate with you. If you don't like that it's called jawnmode when others than you are working on it, let's go with a different name! But what's important IMO is that I think it's better to get a broad discussion and team around this if it's ever going to be played, doesn't matter what it's called as long as it's promoted somehow


Could you please list the things that the current jawnmode is missing, and also if there are any changes from the original that you just feel doesn't belong there?


The problem is mostly to get _everyones_ perspective into this, both duellers and teamplayers. While many of these things are fine in duels, balancing the weapons too much would probably destroy teamplay, that's for example why I kept the weapons in their respective tiers and only balanced them out to each other (SG/NG, SSG/SNG). Is this tweak aimed toward balancing LG with RL, or is it about balancing LG with all the other weapons? In the latter case, I can already hear Ake_Vader shout "go home to Q3!"


And I'll be happy to contribute!

Take care,
Molgrum

Time. I go out a lot more, I've taken up BMX freestyle again, yada yada. I'd rather just test things, implement them into JTeams, and if somebody wants to implement jawn's jawnmode, then so be it.


Yep. Sounds arrogant yes. But it's called jawnmode, because jawn (me; it's my alternate 'web' nick, along with weedbix) decides what goes. I got the idea from CPMA - arQon implemented ideas that the greater CPM community might not agree with (for whatever reason), but he implemented them into his own alternate, toggle-able gameplay mode with his name on it.


Indeed. But the people should decide whether or not to implement jawnmode, not what jawnmode should be. As I said, jawnmode is my vision for gameplay, anything that differs literally isn't "jawn's mode".


As of the time of writing, I have no idea how KTX's implementation differs, so I can't help you with that as yet.


We can certainly work together, but unless I have veto then it's really not jawn's mode. I wasn't aware that jawnmode had been changed at all. I too once allowed teleporters to retain non-z speed, but I eventually changed that to 440ups exit speed, which eventually was revoked, leaving the age old 300ups exit speed. The reason I did that is that the exit speed should be the same every time (else tele-exit ambushes will be a thing of the past), and that ping affects teleporter exit speed (hence why the Aero tele trick is harder the greater your ping). In extreme cases (as might be exhibited by HPBs or international matches) the LPB exits with 300ups, and the HPB with 0! As for getting the SSG/SNG 'equal' to each other, it's not quite as cut 'n' dry as that. The SNG requires prolonged prediction aiming, whereas the SSG is hitscan (in ideal conditions of course) and low rate of fire. But I digress...


I welcome all feedback. I do suggest you go with a different name though unless jawnmode is implemented exactly as I decide, good idea. As for discussion, I always did deliberate with others (even strider, the phantom!). But there has to be a veto, else the project lacks cohesion. Early TF is a great example of just adding whatever people thought would be 'cool'.


I could do that, yes. But you're better off just renaming it, and doing what you see fit, because I'd rather maintain my own version, which you can choose to implement or not.


Everyone isn't the great idea, there are some buffoons and people with hidden agendas around. As a fat, wise man once said, majority rule don't work in mental institutions! As for 'balancing weapons', that's wrong on many levels. If all weapons were uber, there'd be no use in acquiring weapons. If all except the spawn weapons were uber (VQ3 is close to this), then people would just grab the nearest weapon pickup and go fragging. What is ideal, is a 3-tier system (spawn weapons = shit, some pickup weapons are uber good, and others in between), so the player has to a) acquire weapons, and b) decide if the extra risk of grabbing a far away top-tier weapon is worth it, instead of grabbing a close middle-tier weapon.

But again, I digress. I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything, quite the contrary - I am humbled by the interest in my vision for QW gameplay!

http://www.promode.org/wiki/index.php/ArQmode

he succeeded in imposing his views by force, after all he's not called "nazi arQon" for nothing
as a side note to this side note: CPMA standalone was announced, yay!

and also Hoony Mode from CPMA should really, really be ported into KTX

No offence, but...does anyone ever even play Hoony mode? As far as i know it's only a mode where both players respawn after each frag on a map that is supposedly "balanced". The "Does anyone ever play it?" goes for all of these mods. It's a bit weird to me when people spend so much time on developing/promoting stuff that "noone" cares about, when man power is needed elsewhere when it comes to the regular DM mode that is actually played and established as the competitive platform in the community.

During warmup, two spawnpoints are chosen by the players. One will typically be a "stronger" spawn and the other "weaker". When the game begins, these are where the players will spawn, with the strong spawn considered the equivalent of having the "serve".

and as long as we're discussing alternate game modes i don't see why there's no room for proposals.. it's not like i could force KTX devs to do my bidding

Indeed

So Molgrum, what name do you choose for your mod?

welcome back VB, missed you

would be great if you could work on the mods in ktx so we can let the real coders do some usefull stuff instead of waisting their time on requests from molgrum and what not

It's not called arQmode anymore, and it's the default in CPMA now. But it is still separate to 'PM1'.

what exactly is jawnmode and what does it change?
changing the damage of the weapons?? if you want it to be a standard mode all i can say is good luck with that!

is ktx devs really considering "working with vb"?

the changes you made to "jawnmode" were made for a reason right? why would vb's "vision" matter, at all?

i'm baffled

Have you guys read what vb wrote??

Are they reading at all?

I'll sum it up and correct me if I'm wrong: VB will keep developing his own mode, Molgrum will change the name of the simili-jawnmode that is implemented in KTX and... that's all.

what the hell is jawnmode?

is it a q3 weapon damage emulator or something?

Oh man, come on... Take a bit of time to read and click the links above. Molgrum gave a pointer: http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/viewpoll.php?id=1922

read? how do i read?
from the right to the left? or how was it..
i cant remember..
better not try...

i read it!... and here is my POV
most small changes.... and then some big changes like the armors and the nails, i dont get why change anything at all thou..
perhaps the stuff like the rl always does 110 dmg instead of random 100-120 is good..

but changing damage of sg and the speed of nails and balancing the armors doesnt introduce more skill to the game?
its SUPPOSED to be unbalanced.. who even thought of the idea of making the bad weapons better? my guess is the ones that always runs around with them and are tired of dying?
come on just learn other stuff of the game instead and try get hold of those precious RL's and LG's

all the other weapons can still be used very effectivily, in e1m2 you die really easy on SG'rs even thou you are fully pumped up.
if everyone run around with good armors and weapons it's just messy and boring and take away ALOT of tactical part of the game
and introduce more dmm4/aim to it instead.. that's no game i would enjoy at least


ofc it's nice when you are passionate about improvments, like the body dissapearing right after death is harmless and is an improvment...
BUT please keep the original weapons and armor of the beautiful game we already got!

come on razor if you did just a tiny bit of research you would know that noone is trying to change your (our) beloved qw.
jawnmode is not supposed to be the "new standard". call it a mod if you like, don't know if the creator sees it like that though.
it's also been developed for years as far as i know, watch the jawnmode movie on blueyonder or something.
as far as i'm concerned there can't be enough mods for the great game of quake. i don't remember anyone bitching when ctf or tf or ra were released. :/

edit: oh, there are plans to implement jawnmode into ktx? i really wouldn't call it jawnmode then. this thread is proof to how confusing it all gets if you keep the old name for a new project imo

yeah i read it. this is what's odd to me though:


what does it matter what vb thinks? did molgrum implement his changes based on what he thought vb would have wanted or based on what he thought would be cool to add, after having "consulted" the community through polls/discussions and whatnot?

??

the whole point of the discussion is merely that vb would like to claim a 'gentleman's copyright ©' over the mod name 'jawnmode'

so if you want to use the name you should stick to the gameplay mechanics that he determines, if you want to 'consult the community' then the game mode should merely be renamed to avoid confusion

start a poll to choose a new name or stick with vb's ideas

razor:

If you read what jawnmode IS, you'll see that it does not increase the SG damage...
The faster nails are pretty justified since the nailguns are something you have to go and pick up, and they are probably the least used weapons in QW after the axe. More usability, that's all.

empezar & oldman:

Yeah correct, I will probably rename it to something else, just have to give it some thought

well i only reacted because molgrum said something like "it could perhaps be tried for a season"
and some other stuff i cant remember that made me think they were trying to implement it as a new standard
maybe i totally misinterpreted then and overreacted

SSG then..
hm ye they are probably the least used weapons because you have to go pick them up compared to sg and they arnt as good as rl/lg obviously.. but they are still good enough... making them even better just sucks

but anyway if you dont want it as a standard mode you can change all you like, my apologies

this is all very confusing for me!1

umm can someone link me to a entartaining [fs] (or similar) demo? i'm far away from europe right now and can't specc, i'm getting very bored

So I sum it up again:

KTX has a jawnmode-like molgrumish mode implemented, toggeable just like is instagib, ctf and all.
VB has his own jawnmode mod.