GOOD as it is! random ftw!

I'm not sure if i have replied to this thread before with basically the same content, but:

The issue/feature in itself, that the respawn times are decided on whether you are gibbed or not etc, seems redundant and i'd probably like it removed. What i don't like however is altering of the gameplay mechanics as it creates inconsistency among servers and possible confusion among the players.

QW is not perfectly balanced. The maps are not perfect, and so forth... The players have "balanced" themselves to whatever the status quo of QW is. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

If you look at this objectively, the way spawn times work is nonsense. Just a flaw that was left in the game. However "fixing" it achieves very little, and at the same time upsets many players.

I think it's perfect as it is. Sometimes you have a fast spawn, sometimes a slow spawn, sometimes your first to get to the packs sometimes someone else does.

Luck is a skill (c) headhunter

Why not regard the whole spectrum of gamemodes when concidering a feature? About DMM4 specifically, it's more of an annoyance rather than a tactical reason.


No, oh very very much no, it is not the same for everyone, the total opposite is true: The luckiest guy gets the faster spawntime.

Here's a scenario for you:
You are spawnfragging at dm3 sng-tele. It's going well but they got one too many boomsticks on you so you need to fetch some armor. Fair enough you have the RA safe so you instantly head that direction, but you wallhug the wrong wall which in your eyes should be okay since you haven't seen any death message for a while now... *GRAPFHTNSHPEOORH* you are fucking telefragged you idiot! But wait, you were not an idiot, because you reasoned why you went over the spawn. How could this have happened to you?

Answer: A player gets gibbed and respawns instantly.

Conclusion: Yikes, that just put out the whole tactical potential of reasoning about avoiding spawntelefrags while walking over the spawns, but hey who needs that as long as we got the good ol' id code that we can all praise until they actually have to get to this very forum themselves and say "hey guys, we didn't actually think about the gameplay THAT much that every line of our code was throroughly thought out and discussed".


Read above why this can never become a skill even for griffin, reppie and/or fifi.


Doomsday preaching? *inserts earplugs*


Seriously this must be the most arrogant answer I've seen anyone make about anything, and totally off topic as well since AIRSTEP DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

To be honest i don't think it's even worth arguing over a thing like this. It removes too little of the total randomness in the game to be worth it.

Once mark some change as too big, this time let's mark it as too small. Nice...
So no real arguments why this change would harm anything?

just implement a new spawnmode. that is always 900ms or whatever the default value is... Then let players enable/disable it.

Dont make it part of a mod.

Agree completely with that being an arrogant + idiotic post.

It's funny how some people think that qw will somehow magically break if you add something to it

Some players are seriously touchy about these things.

EQL was going to have fallbunny enabled. But then Mr. Lame joined the channel and complained how this would destroy gameplay. I seriously thought he was joking. But, in the end, he managed to convince sassa to change it back.

Alright, but could the touchy players defend this bit of QW if it matters so much? I'd like to seriously discuss it without any stupid flaming and/or doomsday preaching. Concider the scenario I posted above, and concider somas post, they are already 2 POVs of the same "feature" which should be enough for a good discussion.

Get rid of them and add a constant delay of ~250ms for ALL deaths (this way you aren't spawning with +attack accidentally or instantly). :}

Spawn points are selected using a random algorithm not a luck algorithm!



And what is the reason to change this know? I never saw a player bitching about it! And I doubt we'll have new players because now we don't have random respawn times! So why we need to change the behavior of respawn times?

I'm used to be favorable to changes that aims make QW more attractive, or even make it better, if make it better does not involve turn QW into something else. This change will not make QW better or worst, it'll only make it different. Therefore I'm opposed to this!

It sure will make it better, because:
1) the rules will be simpler
2) after gibbed in a quick fight, you won't spawn with not wanted shooting your teammate in the back
3) 1.5 delay is annoying .. *click* *click* *click* SPAAWN FFS!
4) The luck factor Soma talked about (you clearly don't want to see the difference between randomness in spawn point selection and randomness in spawn time delay)
5) absurd advantage when carrying axe will be gone

"if make it better does not involve turn QW into something else. "

you all are thinking this to be way too big part of qw. its not changing qw to another game and its not breaking the game. i can only see a riddance of a way too big annoyance

IMO the new mode would:
1. Get rid of a simple annoyance, put a more smooth routine in the respawn-clicking.
2. Get rid of instant respawns that are impossible to avoid/predict.

The first one would surely make QW more attractive, smoothness is important.
The second one is just ridiculous, being gibbed and due to that spawntelefragging someone is just a way too weird lottery, not at all comparable to avoiding spawns.

Planning to get respawned a lot? I'm pretty sure new players (saying more attractive obviously means to get new players as old players are not really whining about this) don't even notice randomness in the spawn times. QW is already smooth as it is now, with all its flaws and pros. If you want to have QW more attractive, remove the things requiring skill = balance weapons, reduce damage and make the game run 70% of the original speed --> now everyone can frag anyone with any weapon available like in unreal tournament without thinking too much about tactics.


Why do you so desperately want to be able to avoid/predict respawns? To get more frags without skill? To avoid more deaths by telefrags without actually thinking where you stand or go when fighting an opponent?

Tough luck if you happen to stand on spawn when you gib your opponent. If you don't want to be telefragged by spawning player then use spawnsafety or normal qw respawns (avoids telefrags) or don't walk over spawns. There are so few spawn places in QW maps that actually can't be avoided (dm4 ya entry, dm6 ra back (what would you do there anyway?)) therefore making random spawn times annoying.


And your describe scenario sucks anyway. So what if you die ONCE due to telefrag? It's highly improbable that one telefrag death matters on 4on4 game unless it's a really tight game. But then again you said:

WTF? You make a mistake and then you shouldn't pay for it because you thought something wrong?. Perhaps next time you won't do the same mistake again.

Smoothness my friend, smoothness.

Is that so? Is it the whining, like yours, which matters? HangTime already mentioned what he things about this issue. Is he an old enough player for you? Or isn't he just whiney enough? I'm not sure whether you're making a tally or not but be sure to count me in on the old players against randomness side, if you are.

What I miss is a proper argument from your side which isn't the usual "because it has been always that way". Under id's lead back then we had several serious changes in Quake's game play--way more serious changes than this one for sure. Why shouldn't we be able to decide how to improve certain parts for ourselves? We could save the life of countless mice here.

I don't really see him whine here.

So it's solely the whine that counts what should be allowed/changed/whatnot?

Edit: Says who?

Right'o.

So if I just notice old players are not whining about it, it means only way of getting changes to something is by whining?

The (old players) quote was a bit out of context but somewhat undermined my impressions that you're implying just that, yes. And that "solely" is exaggerated which I excuse for. However, do you really think that it is a good indictator how many (old) players whine or not?

What about the poll? It clearly shows that most of the guys are in favour to get those delays removed. You should not bias your opinion on what could be, i.e. who's not complaining, just because it somehow fits.

Johnny listed five points pro non-randomness. How about showing us what's possibly wrong with them instead of making assumptions of what others might think because they aren't saying anything. Such assumptions won't get us any further.

It changes core gameplay for the following reasons (I've been talking to certain players about this).

1) Random respawn times prevent 100% certain spawnfrags

- If you shoot towards the spawn after you get a frag it's highly possible that the spawning player dies by direct hit if the spawntime is allowed to be constant because you just know when the spawn happens.

- If you angrily try to spawn immediately you die, you could be saved by the longer spawn time and take only half (or even no) the damage you'd get otherwise.

Note: this affects mostly 1on1 games and also is dependant on the will of the player to spawn immediately.


2) Random respawn times has little effect on the occasional respawn telefrag

- It's up to the player to avoid spawn places after the frag or during fights. It's not the respawn time's fault you get telefragged by respawn.

- Regardless of the time, you are still able to respawn telefrag player if you just time it right and the opponent is not careful enough.


3) You don't really have to walk over spawn places without certain exceptions (aero ra, dm4 ya entry)

- There's always risk of getting respawn telefragged if you walk on spawns, regardless of the respawn time. Player should always avoid respawn places, they are not safe to walk on (except in duels where you know if the opponent is going to die or not).


4) Luck factor

- Not really luck, random is just random. Why should you have better luck than the other player who died with you at big/dm2 leaving 2 packs there? It could be him or you who respawns at big and the other at tele-ya. It's just bad thinking if you try to run there from far away while knowing the opponent might have gotten the better spawn.

- Affects both, respawn place and respawn time.


5) Annoyance factor

- Many things annoy me in qw, but is it really a reason to get rid of something? Some people get annoyed by something, others don't care and the rest likes it.


6) Predictability

- I don't see any reason why something like this should be predictable. Estimate the risks walking over spawn, guess the enemy respawn moment and respawn place and do your best while being ready for anything. Being able to predict respawn time most likely only results in higher spawnfrags while avoiding only few respawn telefrags.



It clearly shows that only so many people are reading this thread, bothering to log in and actually vote. And how many actually think over it when voting, do they consider the consequences? I see only few people actually trying to explain anything.

It's up to the spawner to delay the spawn.


Again, it's up to the spawner to delay the spawn and think before clicking.


You cannot avoid 0 ms respawns unless you were the fragger.


Yup, of course... UNLESS the opponent read that you died and instantly moves out of the spawn.


The risk at the moment of being spawntelefragged because of a gib is very small, but it shouldn't even exist if you're using skills and reading death messages, IMO.


Random = luck, just go to any lottery and try to guess what number is next.


It still removes skill to have it in.


Yeah and clearly this poll is mostly about this very point - they are annoying.


You cannot guess before the enemy dies, right? So if he's gibbed, that puts out this whole tactical option.

Thanks for the answer.


That sounds reasonable to me but as you say: "it is dependant on the will of the player to spawn immediately".

You could let the player decide when he wants to respawn--to a certain extent--and thus avoid such spawnfrags too by delaying the respawn. I cannot deny the angry part but "spawning discipline" would help you in some cases. It's not that the spawntime should become constant, e.g. you always spawn 250 ms after death, so that the spawn rapist can predict exactly when you respawn. It should be a window, e.g. 250 to 3000 ms, in which you can spawn and let the player decide when exactly. To arbitrarily thwart a player to spawn "earlier", if he wants to, doesn't feel right to me though.



I agree on both points. They aren't valid reasons against random spawn times.



Yes, if you spawn SR-alike near them, it surely is random/luck/whatever. How the spawns are distributed is necessarily random as we all know but the respawn time itself doesn't need to be random. It is something we can safely remove and streamline. What about the situations where you spawn in similar distance to those packs? If you could outrun your opponent because your movement is good but you're not yet bunny hopping towards them since you're still waiting to respawn, hammering your jump key. This is frustrating and moreover unnecessary.

Whether it is stupid to run towards far away packs or not is a different matter I think. This is going towards game theory. :p



Hmm yea.. this is more like a matter of taste and it is hard to argue about such things. You have to compare the pros and cons and then decide what's best. Maybe try it out for some time. I can only say for myself that those respawn delays annoyed me for years and I'd love to see them gone. Now, that I know the reason for them and want them "fixed" even more.



Well, like I said. It should be up to the player, if he is predictable or not. Just don't delay him for no (real) reason.



You are right that such polls aren't as expressive as they should be. And the same applies for actual replies in a thread, e.g. old players too lazy to whine. :p

I don't want QW became simplified, not in the gameplay! It's nice we have now a better message system, installers, graphics, in game configuration tools, etc. But I don't want to see QW became some sort of PK, just to have more players.

I loved the part of this topic where molgrum explains how spawn times works, cause now we can try to use it in our favor! Now players, like me, that didn't know about this random system, can integrate it into his tactics to beat a opponent. So this random spawn times should not be removed, but used as another part of qwer skill's.

And just to clarify things! To win the poll, a option must have 50% + 1% of the votes, not only have more votes! Also the poll should have only 2 options, you want this to be change or not. The fact someone doesn't care about spawn times been random, doesn't mean he want it to be changed!

Yeah, if I exaggarate a little, I'd say that most people think that if you allow developers to change a single little tiny thing today, they would turn QW into counter strike or some MMORPG in two days, just because they are all so perverted. That's the tone I see from most of the negative posts (not only in this thread)... Go look at warsow people, that's where real changes are happening. We are talking here about something so idiotically minor and insignificant that if I was a mod developer, I wouldn't even ask anyone and just change it. (I guess I'm going to burn in hell for saying this)
I regret I wasn't here in KT times, I wonder how mod authors were open to discuss their changes with the community back then.
Sorry for offtopic post, but I guess all "pros and cons" have already been said. And like usual nothing will happen, because qqshka is not willing to change it. But it was fun "wasting" my time in another thread like this