Well at least that would be a response. Your example is terrible Generally governments simply don't respond. Aside from that I do agree with most of your assertions. However it does seem to me that you are reading the messages with biased shades on. A lot of people support the issues you have brought up on a principle level, but are also quick to point out that a lot of this is simple the nature of the beast and all the admins can do is try to listen and make a judgement call. And I must say that the 1st post in this thread did end up being quite a quitters remark even before the games have begun :/

Someone has really understood it.

We in bloodpunch was originally playing in rookies div, but were moved up to bronze.
And I dont argue with that at all. But the fact remains that many of us are still real rookies when it comes
to thinking quake and tactics and how to play except aiming.

It was great fun playing yesterday with roz in our team since he was on ventrilo and trying to help us organizing our teamplay.

Denying certain players to play in a team is just wrong.

Ok. Sorry for mentioning John_Rambo, Hedgepig. He's probably not as much of a one-man army as Arnette.

Good post.

In some cases it definitely makes sense to denying a player to join a specific team after the season has started and the divisions/cups are locked. Anything else would be ridicolous in a tiered system.

Well if it was only that simple :] Finding a clan you want to play with is one thing, them accepting you is another, you getting to actually play official games / most pracs is a third. Also I think most people want to find a clan where they could see themselves in future seasons as well, so player relationships and future plans play a big role as well.

Of course, i know very well what it's like, but how often do you see these non-division1-stars actually look for a good clan? It's like not a single one that makes himself available for higher ranked clans.

well EQL managed to kill BST because it didnt listen to people from the division.. i mean putting bst in with 6 clans which then gets reduced to 4.. of which one clan didnt even bother to play us so we come second due to playing fewer matches... what a joke

at least Sassa isnt administrating the league which at least is something in NQR's favour...

the fact of the matter is you are ALWAYS gonna get mis placed teams no matter what, and its best to just accept it and get on with it

Niomic: thought you gave up quake??

Word on both of you!

Also take a look at theese.
http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0802074on4bpvsavdm3000ty2.jpg
http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0802074on4bpvspimpdm200ej8.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0802184on4bpvsfae1m2000da0.jpg

Actually, you'll find that we didn't call people noobs, while they called us noobs

---

I'd like to say that ncr summed things up quite nicely, NQR is meant to be a more competitive league than EQL with bigger tiers and thus it is inevitable to come across "gray area"-clans that might get misplaced due to the human factor that admins actually do have. Yes I at least am sorry if any clans were seriously misplaced, but there's nothing that can be done about that for NQR11, you'll just have to "bite together" (swedish saying) and hope that you make impact on possible future NQRs.

It is "bite the bullet" in English. In future NQRs I recommend that you post draft groups a week before they are finalised, and allow them to be debated on the forum, then decide on teams to move around based on all the feedback you received. This makes it much more transparent and if there are misplaced clans then c'est la vie.

Well I admit you have a point there of course. And while I think it's a pity that clans/players are easily demotivated by losing games, it also leads to another problem: While we like to include all clans in NQR, we are also (trying to be) the biggest, most prestigious and most competitive tournament in QuakeWorld. It's really hard to combine those aims while building ground for people that "never play" or "just wanna play like 2-3 games a week". You are right when you say that those people are not looked after as much as the rest of players. Maybe some room for improvement here, I admit. However, I also can't help but to say: You can't complain about losing if you never play.


That is a very good question and definitely something we will have to keep track on. I assume that by next season, if there will be one, today's rookies (if still active) will rape the new rookies (if there will be any). However, I feel it's kinda too early to make any assumptions about what will happen next season. One year ago there were almost no rookies at all, at least not enough to create a tier for them. A year from now? Who knows.


Yeah great, let's pretend I didn't already spend countless hours on this board, IRC and the NQR page trying to justify our decisions and debate with players. What the fuck? And when did I call anyone a noob?!

Maybe you didn't pay too much attention in the first week, but that's exactly what we did. Naim, Nafianna and The Pimps were all in the Bronze Group for a week before league start. The complaints just started rolling in once Naim and The Pimps played their first games.

I didn't see any discussion open on the forums. Otherwise I would have joined in. Something like "NQR Draft Divisions: Post your thoughts here". I could have told you exactly how it would pan out. Yes, the value of hindsight, etc., but it was obvious that Pimps were going to steamroll most teams, and it was obvious that a team with arnette and igggy was going to be very strong. I'm talking about transparency - when the public is involved in the decision making then the public shares in the blame if stuff goes pear shaped. I'm on your side Soma! I'm out for the good of Quakeworld. If you don't want to take my helpful suggestion on board then that's your own business.

Soma: I think you got Hedgepig's post wrong. (Your first post on top of this page, last quote).
I think he meant us players whining on other players that whine to admins?? Or was it me who got it wrong?

Btw Hedgepig: If you check your team @ NQR page it says:

Map pool / desired tier Regular / Bronze Cup

So it was your team who wished to play in Bronze too Still I agree that it would be a good idea to let people reflect about the groups a week before. Might avoid this type of discussions afterwards.

You're doing a great job Soma, keep it up!

Ahh I'm only "busting his balls" as they say in New Joisey.

Ya when we originally signed up there was only one Na Fianna which was a mix of Fian A and Fian B. We went for Bronze because we wanted to make sure that our B players could get some games in. Then at the last moment we managed to get enough activity to split into two teams and it was a bit messy - you can blame Mickah (he can't help it, he is a hockey player). Anyway, as mentioned, Bronze is fine for us now with so many other good teams, and now we'll have to fight hard to finish in the top 4 or 5 so it looks like it will be a good season.

Hedgepig: Allright!

You're right, it will be a really interesting season. GL mate

Heh heh. What about rookies group? People are asking me who is that hemlig guy so that I can compare his ip-records to something so that I can see if he is a fake.

Now that I actually bothered to msg Molgrum, he just annoyed me by his hilariously sarcastic reply. Yeah, people like him are 1) trying to change qw for the better 2) while allowing players like arnette and hemlig play on the groups/divisions they don't belong to. How's that for "improving" qw?

Next time you get your admins to the leagues, make sure people like him won't be there doing nothing with his sarcastic comments.

All check their match scores @ http://nqr.nu/nqr11/index.php?cont=clans&id=1137 and see for yourself. I'm quite sure we are soon boycotting nqr with one or two other rookie clans. With everyone they've played against. Check match comments also. Anyway, just thought I mention this before we start doing it. Hope this matter will be solved soon.

Problem is not that they win, that's okay for us but they win because of one player... It doesn't matter how much he has played(or his history) but it's fucking joke for everyone to lose for a one team because they have one high div player. If admins won't deny this, we'll be taking one div3 player also so we'll win our div.

btw, they use excuse that he's their friend but div3 player we would take or even div2 would be our friend also, we have such friends.

Just to be sure, I didn't request any ip checks or talk with admins. I'm just a player stating my opinion.

Read the news, be happy ->> http://nqr.nu/nqr11/

I am. This is fair but we'd love to rematch these guys.

Perhaps you should have. Nothing will ever change if people just let things go by. I'm sure there are problems gettings clans/players to their proper groups/divisions but this is something admins HAVE TO DO instead of just being there and confirming games.

So in the future, players, if you see something like this then bring it up to the proper people. League admins can ask server admins who actually log players on their servers to see if there's any faking going on with unknown nicks. As I recall there's been only one such admin who actually checked players to make sure they are in their rightful place (hello Sassa).

maybe a ladder would be better, play vs everyone or choose who to play versus, then reset ladder every month and see who won...

That would be awesome - only gimmick tournaments to play in then! \o/

(thumbs down ;p)

imo a better system is to fix your "technical impossibility" and move teams after week 1 if they're obviously miles too good for their division (strike the one game off the record). Every division has a clan that is way too good, and also a whipping boy.

Some hints to look for:
-A team that hits 400 frags against another team in league game.
-Beating one of the favourites by 100+ frags on each map.
-A div5 team beating div2 teams in practice games.
-A player that scores 120 frags on a map more than once.

Steps to take:
-Speak to the clan "you look out of place in this division, if there is a spot in the division above, would you mind accepting an ad-hoc promotion?"
-Identify the whipping boy in the division above
-Speak to the whipping boy clan "you look out of place in this division, if there is a spot in the division below, would you mind accepting an ad-hoc demotion?"
-Swap the clans.

What if the clans haven't played a game after like two or three weeks, and those games have been even? How far into the season are you going to alter the divisions?

Everything is simple on paper, but when you're finally in that position as a league administrator everything is suddenly so much more harder that you just go "WTF!? *SIGH*".

If the games have been even: great, that shows they won't steam roll the division. Steamrollering is winning all of your games easily. If you win but don't steamroll your division then you're not really misplaced, you're just the champion! (congrats)

How far into the season do you go: 1 game. If a team has played more than one game then you don't disrupt them.


Everything is simple on paper and in practice it's really not that much more difficult in my opinion. You've just got to work things out logically and democratically and then brazen it out. Stare at the mirror every morning and clench your teeth and growl and then say "I AM FEAR INCARNATE. I AM THE TERROR OF GOTHAM. I AM THE HEDGEPIG." Then you will not sigh, you will roar like a rabid lion. Instead of "WTF?" you will say "EZ."

roflol

In my opinion admins should be more harsh, it just seems like lies to me that some players don't consider they don't belong in their division.
In regular sports there is money. Money affects in how high division you go, because teams buy you if you are good, and you don't stay in inappropriate division because you need the money.
There are no money in QuakeWorld, therefore there has to be another force that keeps the system balanced. Removing player from the team, moving clan to another division - even after 2 games, why not - don't act like the world is going to collapse. In the end it's their "fault" or more like a "risc" of this sport.

At the end of season all tier winners should be disqualified for being too good.

Hedgepig:

I think you're just pretty much stating obvious stuff, we all know that if a clan rapes another -> they are probably different divisions *gets a lightbulb above his head*
But as Ake says it's not so easy to just follow a codex when you do it practically, you'll always get whine and hate that you have to deal with, and that is the tough part that you won't have any special notes about before the tournament.

Johnny:

Moving clans between divisions is impossible at the moment (because of technical problems), but even if it was possible, would it really be desireable to see things move around all the time as soon as someone whines? I don't think we have been too kind about it, to be honest I think it has worked pretty well, we just like to take our time for discussion before making such decisions about adding/removing players. Unfortunately there are frenetic whiners who aren't even playing in the league, such as Renzo, that can't cope with this... but of course we listen to the rookies who are participating and try to solve their problems and requests as good as we can (even if it takes a little time).