That's twisted thinking. First he should say why 120, as 110 is already explained.

Same way I can come and say RL dmg should be 50.

If there are more useless posts like this the thread will encounter a clean-up soon.

I dunno; we've gotta remember that at the time it was being written, the idea that Quake would be used for serious competitive gameplay was probably not forefront in their minds. So you create a rocket launcher and give it a certain amount of damage. But then you get to thinking, explosions are kinda unpredictable. Wouldn't it be great if we could make rockets do varied damage? Of course, it'd be pretty stupid if a direct hit from a rocket launcher didn't kill an un-armoured opponent. So we'll make sure it does at least 100 damage.

Plus, remember that in many way, Quake is an evolution of Doom. The rocket launcher in Doom is even more random; it does 128+20n damage, where n is a random number from 1-8 (or in simpler terms, 148-288 damage). If you think QW is bad, imagine this situation from Doom. Both you and your opponent have 100/200. You score a direct rocket hit, meanwhile he shoots you with the pistol. You then score another direct rocket hit, but still the ****er isn't dead. He casually flings a rocket off which kills you. So 1 rocket and 1 pistol shot was enough to send you to your grave, yet he took two rockets on the chin and kept on coming.

Obviously, just because Doom is more random than Quake, doesn't mean to say that we should accept any randomness in QW. I'm just showing that the decision to randomise rocket damage in Quake probably didn't seem so crazy at the time.

I'll tell you why: two players with just over 150h get into a close-quarters fight. Lets say they both turn the corner at the same time and fire in each other's faces (it happens often enough). With random damage, theres a decent chance one of them will survive. But with static damage, both players will die every single time.

They have been getting damage before the direct hit or what? Cuz else they will both have 40h left

Perhaps he added some splash damage to that. I dunno.

They both eat a quaded lavaball maybe?

I think he meant "just above 110h", so both 111 for example.

"That happens every day."

That doesn't make sense at all.

Two players with equal health get in a fight, both shoot perfectly and both die? How could you possibly object to that?

And why would they both have 150h? That's an unlikely amount of h for one person to have, never mind both at the same time.

And, even if this scenario were common, the increase in double deaths for this specific occurrence would be negated statistically by the amount of 160vs140 double deaths and 140vs160 double deaths if random damage were in place.

(I assume that you are talking about point-blank shots where both players take self-damage from their own rockets).

If two players shoot in each other's face at point blank they will take damage from their opponents rocket plus splash damage from their own rocket. That's why I used 150. And that's a perfectly likely amount of health for two players to have (full health and some armor can easily equal 150h or more)

In the interests of research, I watched 4 of my demos on various maps this morning in order to count the amount of times the point-blank double kill happened.

It happened once, and only then because I got a lucky direct hit that landed 120 damage. He would have survived with a static damage model.

In other news, I survived instances in which I should have died 4 times because of inconsistent direct hit damage, 1 of which completely changed the outcome of the game (Taste my luck, falzzi. Swallow it down).

If you look at the games ID made after Quake, it's pretty obvious that the fact that Q1 came to be so awesome, is mostly just pure luck and coincidence. Some people tend to think that everything in the game is somehow carefully planned to be just that way, but I don't think so. The more ID has had time to think how to make an FPS shooter, the more it has sucked. DooM -> Q1 -> Q2 -> Q3 -> Q4. I think many things in the game are the way they are just because that was the first thing that came into the coder's mind.

only saw this because of a post in a different thread. i'd like to add that i don't think that a mere 50/50 vote should be enough to introduce changes to core gameplay elements of quakeworld.
i also don't like how this is a silent 'update'. editing a post doesn't even bump a thread and this had been dead for 2 weeks when this was 'announced'.

I want my randomness back

But hey IPGN will never upgrade to 1.36 so its all good lol

It wasn't just that and whimsy, it was changed on some popular servers for a significant period of time and no body even noticed iirc.

Terrorhead, QW is dead in Australia. ggs...

the reason why players don't notice changes like this is because nobody would expect them to happen. it's not like people run around on servers measuring the damage their rockets do. the change is subtle and there is no way to deduct it from normal gameplay anyway beause the new damage range of rockets is 100% within the older damage range. you can't tell if this change was made because the new value for damage was a possible outcome of the older 'random' damage model.

besides, it's a pretty weak argument to say 'it's such a minor change it isn't even noticable'. if it's such a minor change then why not leave gameplay mechanics alone that have proven to be working for 13 years?

It was on the front page's poll area. The result is not 50/50 either.


It was not silent, read above.

Also about "IPGN not updating to 1.36" reply, it's up to the server admin to decide if it's worth updathing or not. However that being said, it's important to notice that the fix list will be massive since 1.35, not to mention most of those fixes/changes are rather important stability/functionality fixes.


How big will the list be? Check it yourself, KTX 1.35 is rev. 817 and the current rev. is 998.

no it wasn't? i'm not talking about the poll but the actual change in gameplay mechanics. how is anyone supposed to guess that info about changes in server code are hidden in some old thread that didn't show any new posts in 14+ days?
that's pretty damn silent.

ok it wasn't 50/50 it was 49/46. whooptedo.

It's useless to argue against this, it was on the front page poll area in the january/february. Also that poll area gives you link "read the thread". You should have paid more attention.


All the information was available on this thread at the time voting was ongoing. KTX team listened to the opinions and made a decision based on the vote, that's all there is to it.

Also it's also useless to whine afterwards as it changes nothing.

Please read the thread more carefully and stop saying 'it's useless'. i'm not talking about the poll i'm talking about the actual change in gameplay mechanics. which was not announced in any noticable way. which constitutes a silent update. which is an easy enough concept that really shouldn't require 4 posts to be understood.


not typing out my orginal post again as it's still up there. i'll whine as much as i like thank you very much.

Again:

I see a lot of replies concerning the change on this thread with in-depth discussions too. Not to mention the 92 votes, which can be considered a good amount of votes at that time.

So, a lot of people noticed it, a lot of people voted for it and a lot of people discussed it.

If we (KTX team) wanted it silent, we wouldn't have even mentioned it. Yeah, we can do that too.

I know it fucking sucks doesn't it. We have so many servers now and nobody is playing.

ok, whatever. my point is pretty easy to understand i think. regarding the issue itself (rocketdamage) and the way this was implemented, that is.

i don't wanna spend more time arguing semantics. i would still like to request that this is made into a proper announcement not (only...) because i'm trying to prove my point about the silent update thing, because i genuinely think this was overlooked by the majority of players. same as you did with the sg 'fix' basically.
so there, constructive criticism


not sure what you mean by that and i hope you're just being provocative there. if you seriously consider changing quake gameplay and making silent changes to it all i can say is good luck with that. you're not above the quakeworld community. you, or ktx team, can't make up the rules of the game even if you admin 500 servers. so, yea, i hope you're trolling.

That was different, it was a feature showcase. And how that happened, I think someone asked tonik to make that happen, there was absolutely no discussion what-so-ever and it was added. I just wanted to show it off to people so they don't wonder why things look like they do, also give more info about how to enable that in your client.


You have to realize the fact that KTX is our mod, originally started by Qqshka and because of that, he can code whatever he wants to KTX. If the other members of the KTX team want something and Qqshka is ok with that, there can be any kind of change and noone can deny that.

As for the servers, running them has nothing to do with making the rules. However, the one that runs the server has every right to use whatever mod or server he/she wants, and noone has the right to say a thing about that. You can always suggest things, but that's it. In some cases there is a possibility of no server at all, if the "job" becomes annoying.


That being said, now to the changes: (this is the important part)

I have stated few times that I want to keep QW as original as possible. It also means I'm not ok with changes to gameplay unless most of the people agree with it, even if it is 101-100 vote. KTX tries to be KTeams/KTPro like gameplay wise.

I don't like certain changes in QW like fakeshaft and cl_idrive but hey, they were both "just enabled" by the clientside developers because they felt it so (I don't see polls for those at all, that's called a forced feature set). And there are lots of stuff that haven't been mentioned and they do change the gameplay, but noone is even told about those. Only a select few select people seem to know that kind of changes, mostly developers and/or the people following the development.

Since almost all settings are toggleable in KTX, league admins are the ones deciding the rules and what settings to use and in worst case, decide where the games can be played, if there are problems with some servers and their rulesets.

you want to keep quakeworld original, stay faithful to kteams and are not ok with changes to gameplay? well, that's great but why go and change the damage the main weapon in quake does?

all this talk is just avoiding the issue. i obviously don't agree with the decision but above all i don't like how this was implemented so quietly.

i'm obviously surprised how little resistance there is to this, so maybe i really am the only one who doesn't like it. i guess i'll never find out as there is no way players will notice this change in normal online play.

The damage is not changed, only the part where direct hit lands was averaged to 110. This way there is no room for luck when two players hit equally their dhs with the same hp/armor, they both will die if the shots were simultaneous.


This change was triggered by the discussion in scene, followed by discussion within the KTX team, followed by the result of this poll. Majority wanted it, everyone got it.

Read the whole thread and people's reasoning.

you present different arguments to defend your stance in the matter. ultimately all of this is backed by 'it's my mod' though, so it's very diffcult to argue with that.

seeing that my requests regarding the implementation of this (edt- the implementation, not the issue itself) are not going to be considered, i'm glad i had my say in the matter.

I was against this for a long, long time. After seeing people's arguments and testing it for myself, it's 50/50 (I don't care, but I still like fact that everyone's DH is always equal). It's not my mod either, I'm just a part of the team.

i don't get how you could possibly advocate a RANDOM extra damage on direct hits, aren't we all about competition and gameplay?
it has serious consequences on individual fights that could change the outcome of games, it's stupid, stop it.

jesus ;[

its so nice that 99 ppl decided on this btw

im not saying if its good to change the damage or not but it is kinda weird to base this change on a 99 ppl vote which was extremely close too, 48 ppl decided that this is good so then it was changed, gg

could just as well just change stuff without asking and then just tell us what you changed in the future

why would you carry over that argument to other changes? this is by far the most comprehensive one, and ALMOST isnt really up for discussion, it's getting a bit ridiculous now with the purism.

Agree, randomness sucks, this is not poker :X