Yes what you say is true about the mix aspect. Dunno why I said that .

But the tactics about how to sneak around the enemy team with lg+100h and plan the ambush on enemy quad with good timing and in the right location is map-knowledge. Knowing how to do this and knowing that enemy knows you know how to do this is what makes the game interesting. Playing new maps is like playing chess or star craft for the first time. A more experienced player will use a slightly different opening book every time, that will be almost impossible for you to counter. Meaning no strategy and almost no tactics is in play.

Why quad-shaft is so power full on cmt3 is not only because of map-design but rather because an inexperienced team doesn't know how to properly challenge for quad and not let him get away fully tooled and if he does, they cant ambush him properly to slow him down.

Without maybe all of you knowing, you have your sleeves full of these tricks on tb3. If you hear enemy takes quad on dm2 you usually fall back from water to path/stairs and spam enough to force him go into big-room. Just maybe the smartest thing to do on cmt4 is not to dive in thru the teleporters 2seconds before quad spawns if enemy is already in there with lg. Obviously you will get povdmm4:ed then. On dm3 when you realize you can't get quad people usually fall back to RA and try to defend where it's possible.

My point saying this is that maps can be unsuitable for a certain game mode (4v4 cw or mix). But most of the time it's just because we don't have map-knowledge.

Nah, the reason cmt4 quad is lg-dominated is because the terrain makes it very difficult to land a rocket on someone if they stay on the other side of the quad spawn, and they can keep you on the wrong side of it using the lg to push you back. On top of that, there's no safe way to prevent someone from getting RA and LG to quad through the water because of the constant risk of discharges.

True cmt4 quad room is lg oriented. So maybe the counter to that isnt to go in there and try to land rockets...
The counter to an enemy 200RA+lg coming from water is to have 100hp and shotgun. Sure the map is far from perfect. But the things you mention can be overcome by some map-knowledge.

My grievances with custom maps:

- Too large size. Makes it too much like povdmm4 and too easy to run away.
- Too bizarre. It wont find popularity if it's too different from tb3.
- Too complex. Let's be honest, there wont be any custom map that will get a lot of play. I don't want it to be hard to learn. I want my teammates to learn it too.
- Too many item types. There is no need to have LG and Pent on every map. Only 1/3 tb3 maps have those.
- Copying dm3 too much. We have dm3, you won't find a better dm3. Why not something that takes elements from all tb3 instead.
- No spots for tricks. CMT3 for example has pretty much nothing but normal RJs.
- Q3 look. Why? Q1 is beautiful.

Yeah Willgurht I very much agree that map knowledge is essential for the quality of gameplay. That's why it's so hard to introduce a new map. It's just not interesting for a long time. Even though we have played quite a few CMT3 rounds lately, the quality of our gameplay in that map vs TB3 is just so incredibly low. You can't expect anything exceptional or cool there, just the most basic play. And even that is somewhat lost quite often. I think many people greatly underestimate how long it really takes to rise your map knowledge to a level that is to be expected from a div1 game in QuakeWorld.

I think it's great that not all maps are just about rl, rl and rl. CMT4 is definately my favourite from the custom maps. It also has clear distinctive areas, ra, ya, quad, pent, instead of being just one big, long and boring corridor like CMT3 for example. You can actually play team and defend armors, quad, etc.

Right. Only 1/3 of tb3 maps have lg so hey let's make even more maps without lg... How about a map with 2 lgs and no rl for a change?

a map without rl would be awesome, but would probably fail ye , tho 2 lgs is a really cool idea

- Too large size, I think this is the main problem about making maps, Its hard to make really good small maps, but when it succeedes it is truly mutch better.

Too large areas, like cmt4

Ok, I put the plpak maps on the web. You can download them from http://www.bajtnet.lca.pl/~panczo/plpak1-9.rar .
I must agree with what Willgurht said in the beginning, there is no sense in creating new maps, because there's really a lot of custom maps, many of them being great. There's at least 20 maps which come to my mind. Except for plpak series there's for instance 1bsp1 map, which lacks quad only, but it's no problem since we can ask any mapper to change it.

spinev2 ftw !!! a really good map not just a ffa map

maybe its too small for 4on4, dont know

e3m1 is a old declmap? dont know but it was pld in 97-00

e3m3 is also funny
it was pld in german masters cup, ownage and nqr3
here a demo: http://pumpkinz.indicated.de/clanwars/demos.php?file=masters_trash_tfp_e3m3_mvd.mvd

Hello

I agree that mapknowledge is the key. If you know the map you can play it no matter what.

The CMT project was founded by me and the whole idea was to come up with maps that would work for 4on4, coz i was just bored with the usual TB3. IMO TB3 was the result of the map-community was too small around that time when quake/qw had to make some sort of "basic" maprules for the 100's of clans around.

TB3 was a result of too few maps too choose from. Lets face it: ID made 6 maps for TDM...the rest was SP maps. The TDM maps was so bad even an episode map made it: e1m2.

But, since mapknowledge is what counts most...well there you have it: it had to be TB3.

"OMG KENYA MAP?? NO WAY! DONT WANNA BOTHER TO LEARN IT EITHER! WE GOT MAPS THAT WORKS"

That was the usual BS. So be it.

I know all the CMT maps by heart, because i was working with the map makers, creating design and optimizing it for 4 vs 4. But again, does that matter when ppl dont wanna bother to learn it? I know all the maps and i can give you some comments. The whole idea of the CMT league was to promote new maps. IMO it went pretty ok.

Cmt1b for instance was played a lot of times by some of the best clans around that time: SR and CMF. They played 4 times in a row in the final. Demos from that final should be enough proof that cmt1b works good for 4on4. This is what happens when the best players learned the map, and played it: my qw-heart cried of joy.

Cmt3 was accepted coz of its very good design, both mapwise and texturewise. It had elements ppl knew and some really cool stuff that was new to all. The map was also made bye a decent 4vs4 player.

Cmt4 got accepted because it was easy to learn. Pure and simple.

Cmt2 and Cmt5 are IMO (coz i know all the maps in my sleep) very good 4 vs 4 maps. Cmt5 was too big so it got edited to cmt5b. Cmt2 is IMO the best 4 vs 4 map of all, gameplay wise. Its very good balanced and feels like a hybrid of e1m2/dm3. Sure, it good "ugly" textures, but that is easy to fix? Ofc, many will not agree to this. Why? Coz you dont know the maps good enough.

So why you are still searching for ppl to make NEW maps when there are many good out there?

I know I have been away for many years, but when i left there was a lot of good maps out there for 4vs4 that no one has bothered to learn. Many of those maps have already been mentioned.

My 3 favorite 4vs4 maps are:

Schloss
Cmt2
Cmt5b

The gameplay and gamedesign of those maps makes me wet in pants. Schloss and cmt5b even got good looks.

Peace

Why I want there to be people making new maps is because I value the existence of a mapping community. We should use the community and help it stay alive. Its as simple as that, then I also believe there are very talented mappers out there that can make even better maps.

Agreed

But mappers will stop making maps if ppl dont play them.

Why make maps for ppl who plays tb3, no matter what?

This tournament isnt for those who only plays tb3 so who cares? This is for everyone who wants something else and with some luck we might be able to start several custom map tourneys so there will be a reason for people to play different maps.

That's why I quited of making cpm4 for QW. There is enough good maps people don't play at all. Why should I do another one...