I remember a discussion about throwing dm2 away from the 1on1 mappool.

Why didn't we do it ?
Just look at the map. It's just not balanced for 1on1. Well, there isn't any balanced map for 1on1 in quakeworld overall, but some are more than others. But dm2?

Start of the game - you spawn @ big, the opponent spawns @ lowrl/ra-mega. He has much better starting position, when he can get BOTH of mhs easily, and RA.
And then? Where are the tactics? Are there any other tactics than just "keep getting all of the MHs"? It's like playing dmm4. But imbalanced. It's easy for one player to get 5 spawnfrags. If the skill of the player is similiar, then he will be able to win by +back.
And since there are no tactics, there is no strategy. All your tactics are just about getting MHs and shooting at an opponent. Only shooting at him.

Another map which is imbalanced (at least in my opinion, I know that you will be able to say that the map is good even tho you won't say why) is dm4.
When you're standing at ya-entry, lots of spawns become actually "dead spawns" for your opponent. And then? Still, there aren't more items to take care of. The main location that has to be taken care of is ga. And you can move out and back to get armor pretty fast.

Yes, I know that you will bring up lots of flamewars and saying that "div1 players are playing it and they know what's good", but think about balance. Just for once. If the weapons aren't balanced for 1on1, we need maps which are balanced for the quakeworld style. Quakeworld became too luck-about, since it's pretty easy to get lots of spawnfrags on some maps (ztn).
This discussion is not about throwing dm4 out, it's about throwing dm2 out and putting another map into TB5.
Stop saying "IT'S KENYA, IT SUCKS THEN". It won't help you anyhow.

Let's look at our current mappool:

dm2
dm4
dm6
aero
ztn

That means that we've got two big maps, which should be about tactics, right? I'm talking about dm2 and dm6. If the map is big, it's supposed to be about tactics. Dm6 is cs map. That's true. But dm2 can still be played brainlessly.
Then, we've got two fast-paced map for almost all the times. That one is dm4. Highskilled players are playing it by using brain, but not everyone is.
Another fast-paced map is aerowalk. This one is also credited as "OMG IT'S KENYA IT SUCKS" by some of the people. I don't understand that. The map is being played for a long time. And yet, it's balanced and can be played by various gamestyles and yet, you will be able to win. (Unlike f.e. dm6)
And the last map is ztn, which is played only by russians. It's another imbalanced map, since you've got 2 spawns at low-center and 2 spawns close to GL. Another spawn is at LG. And another one is at RL. So if you're standing in the hallway, you should be able to kill your opponent easily if he spawns at 4 different places.

But the main map I'm talking about is dm2. We should throw it out. And what map are we going to put there instead of it ?
Is there any map which is a compromise between aerowalk and dm6 or something? Or would we use another big map?

I believe you to be extremely wrong. TB5 is great, but lets only focus on dm2.
It is great for a number of reasons. First, Locktar style works, its really the only game where you can rocket jump to get a really high speed and still have a chance to win. At the same time as it allows this it allows players to walk around using tactics. The amount of play styles that can be used on dm2 is so varied that its great. And 4 of 5 armors can with ease be hold by one player and make it very equal. Also why do you assume one spawns big and another spawns ra-mega? YA-tele spawn then? Yes equal once more.

Try tridm1 as dm2 replacement and tridm2 for dm4.

+1

-1

All the current maps excluding DM6 are more or less spam shit (dm4, aero, ztn) because they have too much ammo and pine. DM2 is good map if there are two good players playing (locktar, reppie, milton, fifi, griffin, ul) but can be shitty if some noskills (oh, here so noone gets angry) are just trying to run and cs.

Sure, there are probably better maps around but it's all what particular player or players think of the particular map. I wouldn't mind seeing GOOD maps replacing worse spam maps in the mappool, but that's hard to get happen since people have their favorite maps and opinions.

In other words, TB5 is "adequate" at the moment, but one could always change it a bit.

Yes, dm2 sucks for duel. I remember I had to play german "uIG" in one of the Duelmanias (3? Reloaded? I don't remember). I basically didn't have a real chance to win against him back in the days. The only map on which I was better than him was Aerowalk. He picked dm2, I got the luckier spawn to start off with, made an easy frag, got easy spawnfrags and then just easily camped out my lead by laming around at RA-MEGA. So I won dm2, followed by my map Aerowalk. I beat the poor guy 2-0 and it was ONLY because I started off with the better spawn on dm2. While I was obviously happy to have advanced to the next round, it really shows how lame things can get and it annoys me that trivial things such as the start-spawn can decide a whole ROUND of a tournament.

It's relatively similar for dm4. Just think of that official (semi-final, was it?) between Rock and Locust. Locust was far superior, but there's just nothing you can do if someone (pretty much) equally skilled gets the good spawns, especially at the start. The same happened to me in vs Adrenalin in phil's dm4 tourney. Twice my enemy started with RA and got easy spawnfrags at the start, followed by a hardcore CS/+back spamfest. Tack for kaffet.

Ztndm3 I guess I don't really need to comment on, but I shall do so anyway. There's enough ammo on there to supply the North Korean Army and the spawn-points are a joke. While western Europe has correctly realised that the map sucks, Russia and Poland are unfortunately still lagging behind. But I have high hopes for the future: While in Russia I noticed Guns'n'Roses still being very popular. So according to my personal development-timeline, ztndm3 should only be popular there for another... hmmm... 6-7 years. Maybe we can move on then.

But, while the above suggests that I want things to change, I actually don't. There are no alternatives. Introducing new maps is not going to work. Ever. Duel sucks - live with it!

skull is THE most fun duel map

This, change dm2/dm4 -> skull ffs

The biggest problem with TB5 is that you need a high level of skill to be able to play them without spawns being able to decide the outcome, or well some maps at least. DM6, spawns don't really matter even at a low level if you are able to sneak into RA you can pretty much turn the game around.
Aero, you can't really get a superior spawn here either. Sure one player can time RA, YA, MH but using appropriate tactics you can prevent access to those items. I also don't think this map is about spam as much as it is about prediction.
ztn, well yea it needs improvements but over all quite equal as well. dm2, very equal if played correctly but so are most maps and they should be. Play the map in a smart way and you should have an advantage. DM4, sure spawn can mean a lot on this map but we have also seen div1 players where map control has switched a few times, its possible just damn hard.

The switch won't happen unless you ask the players who like and choose those maps (dm2, ztndm3) what changes would they do or what changes would be "ok" in the maps, and then release dm2pro and ztndm3pro based on that. There's no other realistic way i'm afraid.
Ztndm3q is "improved" version of ztndm3, but that didnt work as it doesn't remove respawnfragfest factor at all and ammos are not changed either. There needs to be official list of changes that were all discussed through and have good reasoning. Or, someone simply make those maps using your own brain and see what happens

Ok here it goes.

DM2: Everyone who says this is a good duel map is idiots.. no further comment. (Why was this even added to the map pool in the first place?? no better dm maps?) Yes a very small amount of ppl have grown good at this map, but that doesnt change that the map is totally not made for 1v1.

DM4: Even tho I personally hate this map, and Its not balanced at all, I dont want it removed (The reason people like it so much is because its been there from the beginning, If this map wouldve been created today.. guess the outcome?... )

DM6: I really suck on this map, and I find it kinda boring. But this is a really good competitive duel map that's slower/bigger than dm4/aero but

Aerowalk: I love this map so my opinion is probably not very subjective, this is an action map, as dm4.. However I do not agree that this is a spamm map.
I dont suggest all maps should be like aerowalk, but spawns (for beeing such a small map) is just brilliant. and armor/weapon/mh placement is really balanced.

ZTN:
This is just a rape of a really good map.
Who was the idiot that placed megahealth there?..
look at the q3 version. This would atleast make ya + mh vs ra battles, and a bigger chance for the underdog
Another issue. Is that GA + SNG is pretty pointless in qw, compared to what YA+PLASMA GUN is in q3 (Atleast put another YA there)
YA should be placed in the center of that little room, so that its not as easy to spam, also its encloses the distance from rl, but most importantly it makes it easier to access fast.
One spawn should be removed from floor (the one closest to rl imo is most logical to be removed) (but maybe better if the other one)
YA and LG spawn probably could be moved alittle bit closer to the weapons.

If all these changes could be made, atleast the map would be alittle more balanced.

Don't blame the maps, blame the game.

the map issue again.
it will always be a problem in qw. the community just wont adjust to new maps. in all other ego shooter the maps have been modified/adjusted according to the change of gameplay. that has never happened in qw and i really think the current mappool is a problem.

i dont know why ppl say that dm4 is an action packed map. dont judge the maps by the games you watch/play in fun games (even dm2 can be super fast then...). in most of the REAL games (tourney playoffs etc.) the map is as campy and slow as dm2 and players of equal skill have to rely on spawns very heavily. when you are not in control the only real tactic you have is to out-wait your opponent and lure him away from bigroom and then hope for a ra-spawn. i mean srsly WTF? and you all know its like that!

as said before dm2 is NOT designed for 1on1. it was always an emergency solution and somehow made its way into every mappool since then. its nice to have a map without shaft tho.

ztn was another emergency solution after aerowalk entered the mappool. just because the tourneys needed a 5th map. it was accepted quite fast. i still wonder why? i have yet to witness an enjoyable game to watch/play on that map. my guess is that its easy to learn and thats why it got accepted by the lazy QWers

aero and dm6 are two real solid maps imo. in almost every case the more skilled player would win a bo3 series on those maps even tho the skill gap is only slight. the games are okay to watch and fit the modern qw gameplay.

eventually i have to agree with xpr/jOn on skull. that map has every potential to replace any of the bad 1on1 maps.

I'm one of those idiots riosatiy was talking about! \o/

me too, lol
But i think if you remove some maps and add new ones as skull, u will have this same discursion in few years like: why we add skull to the map pool, what a unbalacenced map etc...
Thats my humble opinion..

i think it will be hard to ever get a subjective view on the maps, old ones as well as new ones
just look at rios post...
players like different maps for different reasons and I have seen good and exciting duels on all of the tb5 duelmaps even if i dont like to play on 4 out of 5 on them myself

i guess ppl will play the maps they find good and fun, i only like to duel if it is dm2 since i have a chance to win vs some players here and i dont have to use lg...

Ok let's join this discussion

I guess it's obvious everyone pretty much agrees on dm6 and aero. Maybe not your favourite map or your best map, but they obviously are good maps. I'm shit at aero, but kinda good at dm6. Ofcourse i'm talking about my perfomances vs equal opponents.

dm2... Just look at what soma said. I did it too once, it didn't give me a good feeling, but I did win.... Now I usually drop dm2 asap if possible. Eventhough it's not my worsest map... I just don't like the possibility of endless running away from either myself or my opponent.

dm4.. well I agree with spoink. A just for fun game can be enjoying on dm4, but tournament style hardcore cs will pay off... unless you get piss poor spawns.

Ztndm3. Maybe it's because i'm a decent ztndm3 player, but imo the map is fine. Just the spawnpoints suck... Relocate some and the main problem is solved. I don't mind the MH under RA. I love trying to regain control over ztndm3 from my opponent. It needs some good timing and sneakiness to get it done usually.
Besides that there is a nice balance between high pace and sneaking around. Allthough it leans more toward sneaking.
Ammo... yeh take away some rockets and take away both cell packs and the map will be completely different. I don't really think the map layout is the problem. It's more the overdose of ammo and the spawnpoints.. This shouldn't be too much of a problem for a mapper to solve. The biggest problem would be people to play the adjusted ztn

New maps, well i'm not too familiar with kenya and new maps. I'm not interested in playing/learning them coz I mostly only play officials matches so I don't have time for learning new shit, but once a new map gets into a tournament (beside kenya tournaments) I won't mind learning it ofcourse

of course if both cant play dm2, its just hidding and waiting at tele! everybody will do it on a map who dont know it, playing slow and carefully.

knast, that's why your dm2 wins were always so convincing last qwdl? You as an dm2 player? http://qwdl.geeky.cc/Season1/knast_vs_dra1nman

QW just isn't a very good duel game. Ofcourse a lot could be done with maps (wont happen), but the weapons aren't very interesting for duel either.

Were any of the maps designed for 1on1?

Skull, IMHO, pwns :-)

Does it have to replace a map? Can it not just be added so we have TB6?

and how would the tossing work then? lottery chooses who gets to toss 2 maps?

ive heard dm3 was originally designed for 1on1 too, dunno if it is correct tho

its not like id1 had 4on4 in mind when making it

I think we should drop dm6 and ztndm3 from the tb5 and make tb3(aero,dm2,dm4) a standard. Or we could keep things the way they are now

that -1:0 was my aim for that game to get the award

what is 'the mappool' anyway. every league can decide what maps are played. in the end it's the players that decide. as long as people enjoy dm2 or any other map it will be included in the mappoll of tourneys. i see nothing wrong with that.

the only thing that annoys me is players refusing to play maps they don't know, claiming 'they suck' or even worse 'kenya sucks'. it's part of qw's great history that certain maps have been established as standard for certain gamemodes. tb3/tb5 reflect that nicely, those are good maps that have become popular for a good reason.
but it's silly to assume that these maps are categorically better than maps that were created more recently. id maps don't have some magic features that make them better than kenya, some id maps aren't even good (sorry).
it's a bit depressing really that so many people won't give newer maps a try. ok, i'm beginning to rant and it's off topic anyway...

btw, this is even more true for 4on4. the 1on1 tb5 already have some kenya maps at least.

mappool needs skull ! ! ! !

If there still are some players who won't agree to remove any of the TB5 maps, because they used to them or think they're good (even it's not true in my opinion), let's add 2 new maps and make it TB7. Skull should be one of these new maps, it's well-tried and deserves to be in the official mappool. Honestly, I don't really have any suggestions about second new map, maybe rf2test or rwild, don't know...
But good thing with TB7 is, if some player hates a map, there is higher possibility to toss it even in BO5 system. Unfortunately, there's no options to avoid hated map if it's opponent's home map .
About: dm2, dm4, dm6 and aerowalk. There's nothing to change in these maps, we should leave them as they are.
Ztndm3: well, I love it, but yes, agree there's to much spawnfrags. This one should be optimized. I suggest to make separate topic about it.

Personally, I hate dm4 and I could say, replace it by skull, but the hell no! There's a huge amount of players who love that map and they'll never agree to that. Everything is about compromise. So, that's my suggestion about extending mappool to TB7.
That's all from my side.
Cheers!

I still like http://www.quakeworld.nu/blogs/36/109/
And I got tired of recommending more maps because no-one cared and people think that habit = quality of a map.

I agree with Spirit. There are so many good duel maps. I started collecting custom maps back in 1998 and there are some really good ones. Yes skull is good but there are so many other good duel maps. Problem is people are just too lazy to try and learn something new.

TB7 can be a great idea, I think people are alot more keen to trying new maps in 1on1 than 4on4, for obvious reasons.
I still think that dm2 is not a 1v1 map, no matter how good you have become by practicing it, I bet Milton could be really uber at dm3 duel and not at all camping.