There were lots of discussions about this map, but was there ever a proper poll about it?
If you can think of a specific map to replace dm2, write it in here.

Thanks for you votes!

I think, realistically, we'll never see DM2 replaced. It may have its flaws, but it's been an integral part of qw for 13 years now, and we all know how conservative qw players are with their map pool. Perhaps one day we'll see the spawn system altered to something that makes dm2 more playable, because I think that's a bigger problem than the "get one frag then run for 10 minutes" style that some people seem unable to overcome.

Imho, if it were to be replaced, I think skull would be a poor choice. It's a good map, but the map pool already has two small, single-atrium, vertically styled maps, and it doesn't need another one. DM2 was something different, and I think you'd have to come up with an alternative that somewhat matched it for gameplay or all you'd be doing is narrowing the focus of qw further, instead of expanding it with a new map.

It's absolutely classical, I can't imagine QW without it. It obviously has pros and cons but which map hasn't ?
Altered spawn system would do fine but it's not necessary. Should ever dm2 be replaced, we ought to discuss the dm4 situation too. Isn't it a camp map quite easy to relatively control ?

All in all, leave it as it is now.

I would like to see a customized dm2 version with few small changes to make attacking little bit easier.

Make YA bars stay up when you are standing on YA. Allow walking to RA-mega without pressing the button. Maybe block the roof spots. Or something along those lines.

Dm2 is very exploitable but people doesn't seem o wanna know what real balls is. When i play dm2 I'm calm and when i play dm4 i can't do shit, dm6 is a bit calm as well, but the thing with dm2 is that it can be played in so many different ways.

Dm2 is like playing chess, of course it's possible to just go back but the key to victory is to mess up the mega timing on it.

There's also a few nails that can be taken to avoid different sounds.

Watch http://challenge-tv.com/index_old.php?mode=demodetail&demo=28830 to see me demonstrate what to do.

Nobody can stay in ra-mega forever because he will end up with no mega and die..

Quakeworld would be something else without DM2 however i would be happy with or without it.

replace with dad

Yes like this, minor changes. Perhaps decrease RA/mega ammo from 10 to 5.

I love dm2 and its tactical difficulties!

dm2 is like chess, raket is right, its a tactical map like sassa said.

its dm2!

raket, you claim one cant sit on ra-mh forever, but it did work well for cage in that demo, sadly he went out from there and didnt manage to get back in time and lost the fight - that didn't demonstate to me why not being on ra-mh is good; you won the fight with 20 health left and it wasnt because you know the map better, it was because he took a bath in the lava a few seconds before that

you claim you showed ho to pickup nails - great, "i wouldn't know" .. you forgot to pickup nailgun which gives you nails too btw
also the demo demonstrates the very classical situation - 2:2, a few minutes left, you frag him and you get like 4 respawn frags.. zz

sure there can be more entertaining and skilled games on this map, just watch any griffin demo for example

btw some nice suggestions in this thread for maybe some future pro-dm2

So when discussing dm2 perhaps take dm4 into consideration as well - a "pro" variation of the another classic would be nice.
Maybe an exchange of upper GA with YA ?LG with lower RL ?

DM2 is nothing like chess. In chess, the more skilled player will always win unless he is extremely inattentive. On dm2, the start-spawn alone can fuck up a whole game. There is no luck in chess and there are no spawns or spawnfrags. Please don't compare something as trivial as dm2 to a purely skill-based game such as chess.

OT:
Recently i played quite a few chess games on my phone when siting on the metro. What i noticed was that many situations are are complex to judge. Who is going to come of on top 10 draws later is very hard to predict. And looking at the scores from elite chessgames, they usually has to play a series of games, because the outcome in a single game is a bit random.

whats skill in ur eyes?

On dm2, the start-spawn alone can fuck up a whole game.

thats not true. and wy we should discuss about start points, every map has bad start points.

"also the demo demonstrates the very classical situation - 2:2, a few minutes left, you frag him and you get like 4 respawn frags.. zz"
thats true, but on the other hand, the enmey has the lead with 2 or more frags, some ppl lose the patience and just playing forward and will lose the game. play seriosly and frag him one times and maybe u will get some spawnfrags. Thats dm2, if u do just one mistake u can ruin the whole game.

in that situation, patience is a kind of skill for me

Quake is about taking a grip over the other player and exploit the other players weakness, dm2 used to be a random map in tournaments where dm4 and dm6 was already played and when it was 1-1 in games.

I won because cage was playing really bad on this map.

DM2 is a map where there's no real skill to take the grip, and i won the map because of having 150/250...

And btw the spawns are correct because he csed in ra.mega, and besides that cage is a better player then me but he played really bad this game.

New maps such as ztndm3 and aerowalk have opened up for the grip to be larger then before and messed up the best players around.

Orginal quake have 3 maps.

DM4 - Smal map, easy to lock
DM6 - Big map, easy to lock
DM2 - Always 50/50

Bad shaft players are somtimes really good on dm6 and dm2. For example i almost took para down lately on dm6 but i guess i have no chance of winning him on dm4. I don't know about dm2 but he would probably get so bored of my cs he would quit.

DM4 is way more skilled map, DM6 is just a old school map

This is why i want to have the old TB3 tours again, many old players would start to play again and new ones such as mawe might have a problem to even be top10 since DM4 and DM6 have so many different way of being played, same for DM2.

mawe is defently best in the world on dm4 and aero and ztn these days, but he's still not that strong on dm6 and dm2 as griffin ul, dag and paradoks is..

DM2 is way better then any other map in the world to have in a tournament where DM4 and DM6 is involved.

Just my two cents,

I'm sure that if I would organise a tb3 duel tournament we won't be seeing dag or griffin. They are simply done with qw. griffin plays sometimes with his band of gtg friends tho.

dm2 imo is the map soma describes. I can enjoy it, but then either me or my opponent decides to run and the zzzz starts. Yeh sometimes I can kill him or vice versa, but it's still zzzz.

Your(raket) critism on the kenya maps is a bit odd. Aerowalk can be locked and ztndm3 is actually easily locked. So i'm not sure what messed up the best players, but I only think it was because they didn't feel like playing/learning those maps. Which is fine as that's their choice.

I can understand not liking some of the maps (Everyone has different tastes. I could list a dozen people that hate tb3 and only play kenya, for example) but I can't understand why anyone would want to go back to a map-pool of 3, no matter what 3 they are.

dm4 = griffin beats dag
dm6 = dag bets griffin
dm2 = can't tell for sure.

That's why i want tb3-only tour back :-)

Lets just think about it, this will probably not be true anyway;
What if i play mawe, win him on dm6 and dm2 then lose dm4, ztn and aero?
ofc he will win dm4 but i can't tell for sure with dm2.. perhaps he does.. but.. uhm maybe i win him on dm6 with a lot of practise

i can't win him on aerowalk for sure and ztndm3 is something i've never played him on.

I don't quite understand you. If he's better than you on more maps, then surely he deserves to win? Isn't that why we play qw; Because it rewards skill and punishes weakness?

I just won 2 dm2s in a row against 2 different people by camping ra/mh lower rl. And I'm the shittest dm2 player in Australia. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz YAWN map. I once beat povohat 1:0 on dm2 by camping lower ya. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

but instead of 'zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz' you could also say 'Yay I pwn!!', right?




that's the perfect way to win, ask knast

Almost perfect. Coz 0:-1 is even better.

I won

UL
Reppie
Xalibur
Hawks
Locktar
Probably mawe as well..
Xalibur
Cage
I've never won Griffin though.

That's the point. It's a shit map because no one seems to be able to think what's the right thing to do on it.

No its a shitmap because it sucks a 1on1 map... Its not fitted for that..
It IS NOT CHESS, dm6 is more compareable to chess imo.

Just because some ppl have practiced in 10000 times to become better than others on it, doesnt mean its a skillbased map. Dm3 1on1 would also favour the ones who has practiced it alot in duel.
There would aslo be tactics on dm3 timing the megas. That does not mean that its a good duel map?

FLAAAAAAAAME ONNNNNNN , *FNISS*


A pro-dm2 for duels would probably be the best solution

For the love of god, if anyone in the future takes it upon themselves to "fix" dm2, don't call it pro-dm2 like we're some kind of e-athlete tossers.

Call it something reasonable like dm2duel or dm2-1on1.

IMO, PRODM2 (duel edition) should have RL instead of NG, RA+MH at low-tele area. GL shoul be replaced with LG. High-RL => GL.

I think the pro- preffix comes (atleast for me) from q3.
Where some maps has been altered to fit pro/competitive gaming more.

It's ridiculous though. Who in the qw scene would have the arrogance to make a map and declare it to be "pro"? It's a naming convention made for a self-important scene that strives to be taken seriously by a world that doesn't care. Calling it "pro" doesn't make it a better map, so why not try to call it something that actually describes it?

I'm just ranting now. I apologise.

We wouldn't need to call the map anything, if all you want to change is the weapon placement, an .ent file could fix that, players wouldn't even need it. The server can handle it.