This might perhaps be a bit early to ask, but I'm starting to think about next season of EQL/NQR (or whatever league that might start) and how you would like it to be. I'm not writing this as EQL-admin, this is just supposed to be a "This is how I would like the next 4on4 tournament to be like"-thread.

So with that being said, what are you thoughts and feelings regarding map pool, rules, divisions, schedule etc?

How would you like the next 4on4-tournament to be like?

(Please don't write about negative stuff from previous seasons without suggesting how you would like it to be instead in the future.)

Best 4 of the divisions proceed to playoffs instead of 8. Last years big divisions were a success so make sure next 4n4 tournament has them again.
Only TB3... Well that's what I prefer, but I wouldn't mind if there was a 4th map, but make sure it's a good map. cmt4 and cmt3 just don't cut it.

Schedule... A bit shorter then previous EQL, but make sure you don't force teams to play 2 games every week. That's too much for a lot of teams since the qw community has a lot of semi active players. Maybe 10 games in 8 weeks or something, but don't make it too tight.

I'd like a map pool of 7 maps. tb3 + 4 more maps (cmt1b, cmt3,cmt4 and one more map by vote (from 3 candidates suggested by league admins)

At the start of the next season, the least played map* would be removed and team captains would get to vote among 3 candidate maps suggested by league admins.

*Exception to this rule is that the voted map will stay for at least two seasons, no mater what.


Reason: Throwing in 5 completely new maps as been the case of the past Custom Map Tournaments is not what i like about qw. That is just FFA. But having a map pool that slowly evolves, allows people to develop proper strategies and tactics.

Now and then people argue that the design of this or that particular map is flawed or bad or has to many nail guns. Obviously these maps are not perfect, no map is. But the most important thing is that these maps are more or less known by everyone, without having the flaws of lets say e3m2 or e3m7 that are maps that can be fun to play in a ladder game, but arguably doesnt fit in true competitive play.


Still we have our legacy in qw and the players skill-level on non-tb3 maps will never reach the level of tb3. Therefore bo3 games should have tb3 decider and and in a bo5 all tb3 maps had to be included (and a tb3 map had to be decider).

Map pool of 5. Tb3 + Cmt 3 and Cmt 4 / 1b / 2.

+cmt1b in the map pool at least

only Tb3!!!! create some kenya tournament for kenya maps.

Hope it's okay to quoute Paladia from Esr. http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1726420#pid1726420

You can't compare starcraft today with quake, to much $$ in between.

I personally think we do need new maps for QW, but the maps I have seen (including CMT3/CMT4) has been to complex in some way for 4on4.

DM2, DM3 and E1M2 are pretty simple when it comes to critical areas and regarding tactics.
I think we need new maps that are made simple and with a few important areas.

CMT3 and CMT4 are way to big imo, i'm still getting lost on these maps and that is one thing imo that ruins the gameplay.

Someone up for the job of making some new simple 4on4 maps?

More maps (5-7), top 4 to finals and smaller divisions like 8 teams and mabye play every team twice..

A challenge-smackdown style tournament with a real group stage + playoff without any ridicolous gold/silver/bronze tournaments - just one tournament to decide the ultimate xxx 4on4 deathmatch champions once and for all. 4-6 teams in each group and TB3 or TB3 + two new custom maps (at least not CMT3/4, nor any episode maps).

+1

Dunno if this was a joke. There are divisions in any sport. Even the local sports leagues in small towns has divisons. When those 'ultimate' tournaments do happen, there is usually some sort of handicap system.

In a land called dreamqw, I would like the next 4on4 tournment to be less boring and by that I mean: forget the current playoffs system that somebody (I have no idea who) made for EQL9 - perhaps there souldn't be any playoffs at all and the tournment should be as short as possible.
Give some credit to the lower divisions; if you don't want to talk about division 3 might aswell create only 2 divisions. Spectators off mode shouldn't be allowed.
TB3 maps are just fine.

I agree, one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of cmt3/4 is that they're trying to be too complex, and the textures used make them cold looking. Some good mapper should really make new 4on4 maps!

2 or 3 divs 2 fixtures per matchup with no playoffs, cmt1b cmt3 cmt4 dm2 dm3 e1m2

if you don't like the "new" maps then you don't really master quakeworld now do you ;[

That is tVS of course, the ultimate xxx 4on4 deathmatch champions, no arguing there.

If there's one thing that needs to be decided long before the league starts, it's the map pool.

If you're going to make it 5 maps by adding cmt1b/cmt3/cmt4, or maybe something not normally considered like some of the high-quality plpak maps, you have to announce it ahead of time. One of the most common answers I got from non-players when I ran the daily cmt1b mixes (before my connection turned to liquid faeces) was "It looks like a good map, but I don't want to take the time to learn new ones unless they're going to be in a league".

I figure we probably have around 6-8 weeks before an EQL starts (a wild guess), and that would give plenty of time for ANY active clan to learn the ropes on ANY map. It takes 3, maybe 4, days for anyone to learn the location of every spawn, health pack, cell and rocket on whatever map without even focusing on it. Any other practice time would be solely for the benefit of teamplay and routine, and teams who want to work on that should be rewarded.

You're always going to have people whine that they don't have time to learn new maps because they're busy and can't play as much anymore, and some people will probably spend more time whining on irc than actually playing this year. I say if you cater to people who don't want to play anymore then you can't be surprised that the playerbase is shrinking with no hope of growth. There are of course people who don't want to play the maps for other reasons, but I think the benefits of creating an environment that encourages active practice on an unfamiliar map outweighs any detriment that the conservatives can conjure.

I may be overstating the importance of this decision a bit, but I think, at its core, it's basically a decision between slowing the death of qw by hanging on to the old maps, or trying to rejuvenate it (at least to some degree) by adding in new ones. There's risk involved, and not everyone's going to be happy, but it's better than sitting back and waiting for it to end up like warsow.

There are divisions in any sport that has more than 40 participants in total.

Anyway, i think such a tournament would have more success now than ever as we have seen quite some upsets in the last couple of EQL's. Also, this would get rid of all the div whine which means less stress for admins, which means they can focus on other vital parts of the tournament.

I guess as the one and only main tournament this would be too hot to handle for the not-so-good teams, but if i were to run a tournament, it would definitely look like this.

But still, you have to agree that a map doesn't get good just because you know the location of every item etc.

I still think the maps (that i have seen) are way to complex, and almost impossible when it comes to tactical play.

There are way to many important areas at CMT4 as example and they are to widely spread. I would say that the same thing goes for CMT3, but that map is way better regarding important areas (still not good imo) just that the map is way to big.

There has got to be other maps already availible but that few people know exist? =)

fog, i agree with you, i dont like cmt3 and cmt4, but cmt1b is just perfect.

please, PLEASE add new maps maps to the pool, make a poll or something for pick the new map/maps

tb3 mappool for eql/nqr is not a bad thing per se *as long* as there's a custom map tourney coming. if there's going to be only a single 4on4 tourney the mappool *needs* to be extended for the reasons given in this thread. my own vote would be for cmt1b plus one new map, but that would make for a good poll question, too.

Well, I have problems with the viability of cmt4 as a competitive map (57 cells with lg and ra in water, combined with completely unsecurable povdmm4 quad room), but cmt3 and (especially) cmt1b are both good competitive maps in which the best team will win.

I've extolled the virtues of cmt1b many times on this forum and had quite a bit of success with daily cmt1b mixes, and I think the main thing that puts people off cmt3 is the architectural style making it look larger and more complex than it really is, namely the high ceilings. You don't have any significant number of important places on the map; RA, YA, Quad, RL, Pent, LG, GL and SNG (one more than dm3 with the separate gl room below ra).

Now that my connection is (somewhat) fixed I'll be starting daily cmt mixes again tomorrow so you can get some routine going and dispel the myth of complexity for yourself.


tl;dr 21:00 CEST at wargamez! Be there or BE.

Well I got no experience from cmt1b so everything I've said regarding complexity etc doesn't go for cmt1b.

As I said I think CMT3 is way better regarding tactics and important areas than CMT4, but I still think the map is to large and important areas to widely spread on the map. I'm not saying it's a bad map, just that I don't think it's good enough to be in a tourney.

Look at especially dm3 and dm2 where the basics are that you got 2 sides of the map (the same thing goes for e1m2 though), this is how a map needs to be like imo. Examples: controlling Ring-area on dm3 gives you a huge advantage, while the same thing goes for dm2 if you control the water/tele area. Controlling YA area at e1m2 is most important at that map..

The architectual design of a map doesn't matter so much to me, as long as the basic (and rather simple) gameplay is there.

I will try cmt1b when I get back from work and vacation..

CMT1b, CMT2, CMT3 and CMT4 are all really good 4on4 maps. See no reason to make new maps over the ones that already have been made. As for areas of importance and maps being too big: CMT3 got 1 ra, 1 ya, 1 rl, 1 lg, 1 quad, 1 ring, 1 pent. The same as dm3. That those areas are widely spread just gives the map more dimensions and more challenging quad / pent runs. It also don't have the big flaw of putting a LG in the water like dm3 has, as discharging only adds a ffa-feel and more boring gameplay, although slightly humoristic situations may appear cause of it.

CMT4 got same number of important places, except one RL instead of a ring, and that one RL is tied a YA. The pent mechanism also adds a different challenge of getting pent than just charge it with as much firepower you can afford and hope for the best. Also both these maps got two sides. CMT3 got RA & QUAD vs YA, LG & RL with RA & QUAD being the most significant, and CMT4 got YA, RL vs RA, RL with YA, RL being the most significant.

CMT2 is also a great map, although abit complex and harder to learn than 1b, 3 & 4. However, discarding these maps from tourneys by claiming they're poorer maps than TB3, I feel is a wrong approach and will eventually lead to players who have not played tb3 for 5+ years grow tired of 4on4. I also find it abit surprising that the players who have played these maps for so long also dont want a few new additions to the maps they've already almost perfected teamplay on.

On DM3 the LG is well placed i think. If a team is so desperate that they need to discharge the enemies, then you know they're in a bad shape. Discharges could also be avoided by a cautious quad runner.


I think the CMT4 pent just destroys the flow of the game and it sucks not even being able to see the pent "cage". The map also turns into a shaft fest and the RA is placed in a pretty fucked up way - it's pretty much impossible to stop the enemy from getting it unless you have super duper shaft with 999999 cells and perfect timing?


CMT2 is probably the ugliest Quakeworld map to ever be considered for competitive play, both when it comes to textures as well as the architecture itself. It even beats midcit and that says it all.

TB3 only!

so cmt1b + another (non cmt2,3,4) map? who agree?

Make a dedicated tournament for cmtb1 or such. Then you will see how popular they really are.

It's a bad idea to put kenya in the only 4on4 tournament as many of the players cba to learn them.

not very hard to learn new maps, if you dont want to learn them, then dont play in a clan that is supposed to be in a "competition"