It's great that the QW scene has a recognised 'summer break', because of the implication of an 'autumn/winter return'.

I also think it's great that the first tournament after the summer break this year is Ownage - 1on1. This means players can come back and don't need to have established connections to previous clanmates or anything before they can play competitively.

I think the logical progression is for the next tournament to be a 2on2 league. Competitive players returning after summerbreak will have bumped into enough old friends to be able to make a 2on2 team, but possibly not enough to form / reform a 4on4 team yet. Also, some people's summerbreak continues longer than others, so probably not all 4on4 players will be back by the end of Ownage.

After the 2on2 league then everyone should be back & it'll be fairly obvious who will be around for the next 4on4 season, so 4on4 teams can form between new comrades & reform from previous seasons and include everyone who's active. Viva EQLX & NQR!

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A few notes on tournament structure:

Although Ownage is perfectly timed & I love it, I can't help but feel the rookies aren't getting good competition from it (though they get good games to spectate) - they get 2 games if they're lucky, maybe 3 if they're really lucky. This should be their chance to put into practice what they've learnt over the summer & have some close competitive games (theoretically also finding some similarly-skilled opponents who might join them for the 2on2 tournament).
It's good to get a chance to play competitively against some top top players, but it's bad to miss out on playing competitively against some similarly-skilled opponents.

Here's a tournament structure which I'd like to see implemented more in QW competitions in the future:

1st round: Group games. Players are split into N/4 groups (where N is number of players, and the result is rounded down to be, ideally, 4/8/16/32), and play 3-4 games against a variety of differently skilled opponents.

2nd round: Knockout begins. If there were 32 groups then the top finishers from each group play 1v32, 2v31, etc to 16v17, then you play 1v16, 2v15 etc, then quarters, semis and finals, but they are played all the way from 1-32 if there is interest from the players = 5 games each.
You can also do this for the 2nd finishers, 3rd finishers, and 4th finishers in the groups, meaning everyone has 5 relatively even-skilled matches to finish the tournament (which get closer with each game).

If there are 16 groups then the 2nd round takes 4 games, if 8 then it takes 3 games, etc.

I think this structure is great if we agree that people/pairs/teams should have some competitions where they play about 6-8 games a season, and play against players much better than them as well as players they can have close matches with. I do like the 'grand slam' approach of Ownage, but I think that to provide for all players and to encourage rookies and such, a group -> knockout approach is best. Maybe people won't be motivated to play their 17-32 knockout games (which are really 'knockdown' rather than 'knockout'), or it'd generate too many game results for a sensible website to be able to handle? If it worked though, and the rookies who lose all 3 of their group games then get to play out quarters / semis / finals against each other, I think it'd be a great thing.

I'm thinking of this with the next 2on2 league in mind (which I'm hoping will start at the end of Ownage - anyone got any plans to maybe run one this season?).

good ideas Darff, but has there really been any good 2on2 leagues? i dont know because i dont play either 1on1 or 2on2 but from what i have seen most 2on2 leagues just dry up and end prematurely

some players just need the 4on4 action

Didn't read your whole text (mah brain hurtz today), but anyway I guess the main reason why the groups+playoff structure is not used widely is the lack of easy to use web system. The only way I'm aware of is asking Zalon to set up EQL-based web somewhere on quakeworld.nu. This works but I'm sure we would see more tournaments if there was some even easier way to setup a tournament website (like there is for SE/FDE tournaments by using phpTourney).

Another way would be to re-introduce QW on some of the "big" tournament sites where tournaments in "modern" games are hosted.

Last 2on2 league (mixed) was not even finished and you talking about group games. More games = more idle = more WOs
Ppl got bored of QW after 13(?) years imho and they want to make things quickly

Yea it's quite possible that I'm overestimating the activity hugely... either way, no matter what format the competitions take, I'd like to hear thoughts on my first idea about there being a 1on1 -> 2on2 -> 4on4 progression in the QW season.

The most obvious problem in my opinion is that christmas and new years is approaching quickly and even such a small break can split up a fair number of 4on4 clans, not to mention what the summer would do if you use that progression during the spring.

A 4on4 league/tournament should prefferably end before christmas and most definately before summer.
having too much 1on1 and 2on2 before the 4on4 action starts can make it impossible to complete the 4on4 games before these interruptions just resulting in a lot of WOs during playoffs.

A plan in qw? pff..

The thing with running tournaments is, that it takes a lot more than just the idea, a website and a league/tournament structure - all this is of course needed, but at the very best it's not even half of it.

What you need is admins who wants to put down the time needed to run a league/tournament. A normal league/tournament in qw is run over 2 months, during that time the admins need to keep the players interested in playing their games, either by going around and telling them to play their games, or some times by doing good coverage of the progress. And while doing this, the admins need to be able to handle a shitstorm of whine every time they make any decisions.

Not to discredit Claw, as I think he did a valid attempt - and I do hope that he will succeed with his project at some point, but the Fusion CA League is a good example on how bad it can go.

It had a great idea, a website, a mod dev fixing bugs and admins willing to put in the time needed. But I think the "idea" part grew bigger than what the project could handle, Claw wanted a global CA league, and in the end he got 15 played games. I'm sure that had Fusion been run as a smaller competition, something that the people behind could handle, it would have been a success, and it could grow during next seasons. I heard Claw say that he would try again later this year, so hopefully it will go better.

Another league I would like to mention is QNC run by JohnNy_cz.
Looking at the history of nation cups, this was quite a task - but with dedication from JohnNy_cz to keep slapping the idlers, and do great coverage to keep the people interested. QNC was overall a success, at least that is how I remember it. And this was done without having some fancy website with fancy tournament features. Hell, I think he could have run that tournament using google docs.

There is also Phil's numerous tournaments thats been run with mixed success, but I see that as a clear reflection of his dedication to each tournament.

Regarding the subject of waiting with 4on4 to run a 2on2 tourney now, I think it would most likely be a disaster - I have never seen a 2on2 league or tournament give any activity to the QW scene, and I fear that if a 4on4 league is not run this fall, there will be noone to compete in a 4on4 league during spring. So I would rather see a semi-active 4on4 league now, that could build a basis and boost activity for a future spring season.

Good point about the rookie thing.

However I'm planning to kick Xenic down to the looser bracket!!!! If I can make it that far, that is!

/Andeh

Points taken - especially about the small amount of time between now & christmas, and the need to finish a 4on4 season before then.
It's true that there haven't really been any successful 2on2 tournaments that I can remember, so maybe going from 1on1 to 4on4 makes sense after the summer break - so long as people play a few 1on1 matches then they'll prob make enough connections so that forming 4on4 teams won't be so hard.

Next season though, after the summer break, I'd like to see a 1on1 tournament or league which offers a few more games per player though, to give the rookies some good games and to give more returners some good games too. I realise this is no more than an idea, and I can't say that I'll have enough time to implement it myself, but if any potential league admins for 2010 are out there then I hope this struck a chord with you!

Fusion failed, I think, because Claw didn't listen to the community and tried to re-invent the wheel by getting a developer to create a new CA mod, which had numerous problems which made reporting scores incredibly difficult... the number of games was probably more like 37, but only 15 were reported because usually you'd have to go through the demos to find the scores or something ridiculous.

Reading this was like reading about socialism to me, a good idea but way too naive to ever work. Now lets not talk politics but this.
To start with Zalon is right about the resources needed as the biggest problem. Just look at the tournaments having been run the last twelve months, in most of them you can find the few same people appearing again and again with a few new faces. The amount of constant tournament admins within QuakeWorld is only somewhere around 10 people. Webpage isn't that hard as it can be run using a free google account, with gmail for reporting, docs for brackets etc but its not very nice.

The other problem with your idea is that it thinks that there are people who have the time to set a schedule in stone and run a tournament according to it. Its just not possible, admins will run tournaments when they feel like it and the kind of tournament they feel like running. If we would have one guy being paid full time for it, then this would be very realistic, but we don't and we most likely never will.

The last problem is you only see the place for one tournament at the time. I believe that to be very wrong. Having a double elimination tournament like Ownage is awesome, even more awesome would be if another tournament would start in a few weeks and take its place, even better would be if it was a one day tournament that was run weekly. Then add a league to that and you still have the room for one or two double elimination tournaments to be run within duel while making sure everyone always has an official game to play.

For 2on2, I think it would be a good idea to run one but don't expect any miracles, Quakeworld is about duel and 4on4. 2on2 has and most likely will always be the least popular format, even if it can be very fun its a lot more casual then both duel and 4on4.

4on4 is a must, you got a lot of players that only play Quakeworld for 4on4, to put it last would be a mistake. The fact that EQL has not been able to start yet is unfortunate but that is how it was this season, and it just shows that getting leagues up and running takes time so it will be done when people have time.

TL DR: Don't try to run Quakeworld on a schedule, instead just start a tournament if you feel like playing in one. If a tournament is not wanted, people won't play, if it is wanted they will play even if they play in ten other tournaments running at the same time.

Another 1on1 tournament happening alongside Ownage after each summer break (which has more games against closer opposition) I guess is my revised idea for what would encourage rookies the most and facilitate the formation of 4on4 teams.

I think QW is very lucky to have so many dedicated volunteers involved in tournaments, websites, servers, mods, clients and such. I also think that we have relatively more volunteers compared to similar, er, setups... we're really more fortunate than we think!

For example, after playing plenty of QW up until 2000 I started playing Ultimate frisbee, but it became apparent after a few years that there weren't really any local leagues happening so I started one up myself (using a ranking system very similar to one taken from an old UK QW league)... but even once it was started, trying to get teams into the habit of organising and hosting small events was very difficult, and would quickly dry up if I didn't put loads of time into talking potential volunteers through hosting events.
Even in my local club, we can have a good idea like running a summer league for rookies as well as experienced players to play in, but there aren't any volunteers who are up for running it other than myself, even though everyone loves it and knows how good it will be for the club. Sure, we have some people doing some stuff, but the amount of time put into it is nothing compared to the time that QW volunteers put in, so big up & hats off to you guys. I have taken a surprising amount of stuff from QW organisation into Ultimate organisation... but as I make Ultimate more accessible to rookies, it's very apparent to me when QW is not so accessible - currently there seems to be a gap where there should be close fought competitive games between rookies.

Of course it's just an idea and not a complaint, because I can't afford the time to organise it myself so am in no position to complain!

Darff, you are right - QW could benefit a lot from more rookie oriented tournaments.

The main problem (as I see it) is, even if you say that we have a lot of volunteers (which we do), it's hardly enough. Those we have are also active in different periods, and when people go inactive, it's often uncertain if they will be back next season, it's almost certain that they will be back, but not when.

Right now, I think it's worth focusing on the community we already have, when we have the resources (people) to expand we should - but Ownage and EQL is what the scene requested.

I am a rookie.

I do not want rookie tournaments. Why?

I can find many reasons to that. One particular reason is that rookies are more likely not to play their games and that the tournament eventually will die out. The established quakeplayers like Locust, Locktar, bps and all those usually do play their games and put their heart in the game. Myself would never miss a game as I love tournaments of any kind, but the likelyness that rookies don't manage to play their games feels alot bigger if you ask me.

Another reason is that I feel no joy in beating other rookies. Even if I'd win a rookie tournament I'd still feel like a complete loser. I prefer getting crushed early on in a tournament where everyone plays that already are established players, and then perhaps training some and getting 1 game further in the next tournament. In the end (even though it might take many years) I might get further than most established players do.

That's how I'd like it to be. You practice every day mostly, or as often as you can, and in the tournaments you get the result of how far you've come. After that - you practice even more - and next tournament see how much you gained from all the hours you practiced this time.

/Andeh