yes, me for example. we are the players that don't even play this game because there is no point with the current mappool.

also notice how this is the biggest argument in favor of a larger mappool - new players. i have yet to hear a similar argument in favour of the pro tb3 faction.

well, obviously: no old players... Personally I don't really even care that much. If there will be a format that I like, I'll play and if not I won't. No big deal. I voted for both tb3 and tb5...

Are you really going to stop playing if it is not TB3/TB5? If everyone says things like that about the option that they don't like it is a really bad attitude indeed!

I don't like the choice of our scene about adding aerowalk and ztndm3 to the duel mappool and I mean I really don't like it. But it's not like I will quit playing over it. I still enjoy the occasional dm6/2/4 and have to accept the fact that the majority does like the addition of aerowalk/ztndm3.

The problem is that people have opinions about maps. I.e. this map is bad because of insert-favourite-reason-here rather than understanding that it can be a part of the game. The wind tunnels for example is a great map. It's just very different in play and the mentality you approach it with than with the streamlined standard maps. It's a different game. You can always rate a map with the argument that it is boring, it has too many open areas, etc. The only map-type I wouldn't like is if it so wide-open that it's more like "4on4 duel/FFA", because that would kill the teamplay which is the entire point of playing 4vs4 instead of all vs all. So I think people would need to change their idea of what an acceptable map is. Different maps simply requires different skills. The incomplete knowledge of a map is a part of the game and skills of players and teams to reach.

Real gamers say: I'll challenge you on any map because I'm better than you.

Maybe even the right to choose map should be removed. I.e. a match would consist of X rounds on Y pre-selected maps. All of this would need to be agreed upon by the arranger prior to the tournament of course.

As a relatively new player (played CTF like 6-7 years ago, joined a TDM clan for 2-3 months then quit and now come back to TDM) it's not even fun when all the oldies played this map since.. way back.. Not that I don't think "map skill" isn't an acceptable skill. It's just that it isn't "map skill", it's "dm2/dm3"-skill.

However, nobody's gonna accept that a new map is thrown in their face 1 week before the series takes off. So it simply needs to be announced way ahead of time. Set a new map standard, good or bad, and live with it. Personally, I wouldn't even include TB3 in that pool.

You know you did stop playing for 5 years when those maps became 'standard'.

Somewhat on topic:
I like tb5 or tb7 (maybe even tb9). What i don't like is people holding ID-maps over custom maps, for the only reason that they are ID maps.

Lets say wind-tunnels was a custom map. No one would ever consider playing it under whatever circumstance.

I find it sad that one side of this debate is comparing the minor differences between e1m2 to cmt1b or cmt4 etc.. Which are all about equally good for 4on4 tournament play, compared to e1m8, start.bsp, e3m2 or e3m7.

Im in favour of an extended mappool mostly because I think it would encourage activity and it would atleast give me the satisfaction of actually learning something new (or almost) in a game that has been more or less static for ages. I we stick to tb3-only forever I amfraid were gonna see more clans end up like AQ which is signing up but never playing a single game. Obviously some veterans wan´t to stick to tb3 just because that´s there only chance of being competetive without practising, but is that how we really want qw to be?

How many people have the opportunity to spend several hours a day to play qw and learn new maps to be competitive?

Like someone said, it's more like some people got stuck at their current skill level and instead of trying to get higher, they wanna bring down the rest to make it more competitive.
So in my opinion, the ones complaining are the "lazy" ones.

And btw, I'm definitly not a veteran (started playing 2008) and I still don't like cmtX or others that i've tried, just because I don't think they are good enough.

If you still want to play qw while having fun at the same time but dont really have time to prac then what alternative have you got left?

it is not about winning
it is not about being lazy
it is not because all other maps suck, tb3 have their flaws as well

it is about having a good time playing qw with your clan mates on a few well known maps
some ppl just cant afford to spend time on unknown maps when they have like 1 opportunity per week to play a game
these players must be allowed to play as well without being forced into endless rapes on maps they havent the time to prac

Let the ones who want to stick to tb3 do that and let the others play extra maps, it isnt that hard to accomplish. also we sill see how many clans actually play the other maps when it comes down to a real game

the ppl out there who are constantly on about new maps and extend the map pool are the ones being narrow minded in this case. qw wont get any better just by adding new maps out of which at least 70% of the players wont give a damn.

and no, you cant say that over 60% of the players want custom maps based on this poll
97 ppl have voted and that is clearly not enough to be representative for the qw community as a whole
ppl interested in custom maps will tend to give a damn about this topic and vote for those alternatives while ppl clinging to tb3 probably havent even read this thread to any greater extent. yeah this might be lazyness but at the end of the day you will get shit games if you force new maps onto them...

My statement above did not imply you, Ive seen you putting down those several hours a day on qw playing mixes etc. right?
So you say Im lazy because I want to extend the mappool and by that statement saying that Im on lower skill-level trying to bring down others hehe?
Isn´t it in fact possible to play tb3 AND other maps or is that not possible according to you?

It is about winning. If you don't care about winning or at least getting better, don't sign up to a tournament? You can still play prac games even on 1 map only and be happy?
And your argument "clans can opt-in for tb5" doesn't work as I've explained earlier.

#69
It is not lazy to want new maps. And yes i mixed a lot before but no i work so qw time will be 1-2 games per week.
It is possible to play tb3 and other maps but it wont be good games vs clans that dont have the time to get such good knowledge on the new maps as on the older ones. Also another flaw is that throughout the tournaments the extra maps have shifted between cmt and episode and even episode tdm maps... that doesnt really help to promote new maps either when a map is thrown out after a season. why bother learning it if it wont stick?

#70
I dont think that myself or others should be excluded from a tournament just because we dont try to reach a higher division. It is more fun to play when it is counting as something. Also some ppl (quite alot of the qw players) are happy at their current level and it is actually nice to face the same clans over and over. the games i like best are versus Demolition Crew and i have played vs them over 130 times...

Also the system with some clans playing tb3 and some clans playing tb5 do work, it is all about having fun after all...

"Suggestion to allow per-team choice of tb3/tb5 map pool is pointless. No team will opt-in for having to prac on 5 maps and therefore having proportionally less time to prac tb3 compared to teams who have chosen tb3."

this is wrong, just look at nqr. some clans opted for 5 maps and some for 3 and it was one of the better seasons in later years of quakeworld 4on4...
use your eyes for once...

you have too much faith in thinking that new maps will bring more players, maybe on one hand it will make some new players start alltho i seriously doubt it. but on the other hand it will make ppl quit since they just dont think that more maps are needed.

the one main thing that is preventing ppl from starting to play qw is that it is simply too hard, they will get tired and never start it up again

Sry hto, my reply was to fog, just forgot to quote.

#71:

Hooraytio,

I still think your reasoning is flawed when you assume that by allowing some more maps (let's say cmt's and exmx), every clan is going to search for some lame map to specialize in and rape all the div0's. It is maybe just a few clans that would like to play such a map and why not let them? From your point of view and the other TB3 lovers, you are playing AT LEAST 2/3 of all your games on TB3 even in that scenario, WORST CASE (assuming you will lose all those rapecloset maps). Because first of all your own homemap is a TB3 and the decider is always on a TB3. And if a decider is not played, well, than you must have won the homemap on the crazy lame map that you guys like to call rapecloset, nothing wrong with it then right? But this is a pessimistic estimation because it might only be 1 or 2 games in the whole season. The point is, can't we all just get along? I just showed you that it isn't that big of a deal from a TB3 point of view to allow them. And it will also allow those others to be happy because they can choose that other map.

How can anyone not agree on this?

If it turns out otherwise than the scenario I sketched (only a small number of teams choosing a crazy homemap) than it was apparently also correct to make the decision to allow those maps because there is a market for it.

Done deal if you ask me

I assume that it will be boring games for both players and spectators whenever a clan choose to play a custom map versus a clan that doesnt like custom maps.

Also johny_cz is stating that it is all about winning. Then what will keep clans from choosing the other clans worst map in every game. That will suck for sure and might lead to more idling when clans discover how boring it is.

the best suggestion is still to allow clans that are for custom maps to play them and allow clans that are against custom maps to skip them.

btw, when a decider is not played it can also be because you lost the custom and the tb3 just because the game started with the custom map and by the time it is over your team is so bored to death that nothing else matters anymore

It depends what we would end up with, but trying to be good in too many maps sounds impossible and boring to me so I think in a league with all episode maps I would play about as much as I play duels, which is not at all. I don't think stating your honest opinion is bad attitude. I don't like duels so I don't play them and I don't watch them and that's that. I keep playing the mods I like which right now is basically tb3 mixeds and pov/end.

It's exactly as you point out, as long as there is more to like than to dislike we keep playing. I don't like e1m2 but I keep playing tb3 because I like 2/3 of the games there. If that would turn into 2/3 low quality games in obscure maps and one decent decider I'm not sure if it's no longer worth it.

#75:

But what if any map is allowed and each div has only 1 or maybe 2 clans picking such a map as a homemap, on a total division of about 8 teams. This means at most 2 maps of the 14 that you will ideally play are on such a map. Does this mean to you that there is not more to like than dislike??

This is just a calculation out of my head but we could even bring up some historical data about this by looking at leagues/seasons where some kenya maps were allowed and looking at how many choose them in each div as a homemap compared to the size of the div.

And if this is so, why would you think there will be a significant increase in teams that choose kenya as homemap? It has always been about winning (because that is a large part of the fun) so why didn't it happen ever before that every clan picks some kenya as homemap?

#74:

We are already doing that. What do you think, if we all know tVS has e1m2 as their suckiest map, wouldn't most of the teams playing tVS pick e1m2??

too many ifs and buts tbh. since it, according to some ppl here, is all about winning then _most_ clans will choose a less known map in order to score easy points. this also means that they can avoid the tb3 they are worst on thus giving them an extra chance to win the decider...

You make the wrong assumption here that one team would pick a tb3 map. Why would anyone pick a map that their opponent is relatively good at? Ofc the system would enforce any competitive team to find a map that maximizes their chances in winning. And why stop at episode maps, let's allow any map. Then you could even create a new map that no one knows for every game to make sure that your opponent has no idea what's going on!

1) Maybe start separte league with 3 custom maps? But dunno how much ppl will take part in it
2) tb3 + 2 maps will not work, as usual just because no one(ok, almost no one) will practice it.
3) Maybe throw away one of tb3 map and replace it with custom one? some "weird" compromise between tb3 and custom maps, small map pool, well known maps and something new/random

#78:

You have a valid point ofcourse. Making your own map will never be allowed and that's not what I am rooting for. I am just pro allowing more maps than just TB3 + only one or two extra maps and specifically I would like to see exmx + all cmt maps or something along those lines.

I do think though that it could be interesting to get one good new map into a small pool. Swapping dm2 or e1m2 from tb3 to a new map could be interesting. With just one new map, you could really try to get good at it too. Or you could have tb3+1. In any case I strongly feel that the more maps you have, the lower the quality of gameplay gets.

In a well known map like dm3 the great thing is when you know what your opponent is going to try, and you know that he knows that you know and so on and so on... This kind of "mind game" is completely missing on lesser played maps where you basically just run around trying to make a frag and this kind of aspect will only develop after years and years of playing the same map and it's one of the things I really enjoy in tdm.

playing some random exmx map will almost be as playing someones homemade map anyway blixem

Heh.
In the end it's up to EQL to decide if QW needs to support such players.

Some clans will opt-in for tb5, but those who care mainly about winning as many maps as possible will not, even if they would otherwise welcome tb5 map pool (but for everyone).

adding a map like e2m2tdm could be a good compromise maybe?

#83
QW must support such players since many of the players are just like that, you are naive to think that the qw community is made up of ppl that have the time to prac more than 1-2 times per week to become better (seriously, ive heard it since 98, "play better teams and learn new maps to become better" ffs there are still quite a lot of players that are happy at their current level)

#84
I hope not, e2m2 is way better than e2m2tdm. e2m2tdm was used in some nqr season and then it was dropped. i think ppl would have demanded it to remain if they had liked it that much. dont you?

I prefer e2m2 aswell, I thought e2m2tdm would appeal more to the episode "haters"

good idea but that map might be too flawed.

also what happened to schloss and grim? some ppl told me these maps where so good but then they just fell out of the discussion again
Link made a serious attempt to make cmt1-5 popular but didnt really suceed. was thet because of the maps or the players? mostly because of the maps imo.

Why can't we vote on getting eXmX maps back?? I want E3M2, E3M7, E4M3, E4M6 etc.

Agreed, I have still not voted since none of the options above represented my opinion.

Why on earth would you wanna play e3m7 niw. that is like playing dm4.