5 games gets you absolutely nothing. You need thousands upon thousands of rounds for people to come up with tricks, and then advanced tactics based on those tricks, and then counter tactics to those and so on and so on. There's like a million little things you can do in a map that you know like the back of your hand. I still have no clue how to play cmt3 and it's been played on several leagues, final games and what not and we really did try to prac it. Even cmt4 is still on a very, very basic level and those are the two most played maps outside of tb3.

Perhaps there's a reason for them not playing TDM...


You couldn't have pracced enough for that in your most active QW years when you probably played ~1 game/evening with your clan on DM3 alone? (consider how much a professional football team practice. I know some people don't like this comparison, but i do. Especially considering that QW don't have any real money to talk about). I think you have your mind set on something that's way above what Quakeworld 4on4...deserves? (I have no better word than "deserves" at the moment)

I guess that's what we're trying to accomplish here? xD

50-100 games that you might get easily if there are more teams willing to practice against you. *I* think the more maps included (say 7 instead of 5) in the map pool in total, the more likely it is that some clan will want to play you as they're looking forward to play map X instead of DM3 for the fivehundredninetusixththousandth time in a row.

Edit: And i mean, that's until you get it going in game, in your mind. I'm sure the best clans can have one or two smart players analyze the map for a few hours (like two or three), come up with the key possibilities and then it evolves from there.

#124

it will take 50-100 weeks to get that amount of pracs when u dont have much time to play... thats whats boring about bringing new maps to a community where a great deal of the players just have time for officials

the overall expectation that a lot of clans actually wants to play other maps than tb3 are kinda overrated as well, it is fairly easy to get 8 ppl into a custom map mix but to find 2 clans with 4 willing players each? thats a lot harder.

What blAze wrote above; people don't want to play them because they don't know if it will be a wasted effort when the next tournament comes around and change the rules again.

A great deal of players have time just for officials? At the moment Ownage is the only tournament running as far as I know so not THAT many official games are being played. Still we have about 400 active players every day:

http://stats.quakeworld.nu/?a=weeklystats

And I'd guess that in today's QW scene these 400 players form the majority of all active players and if EQL is going to raise the number of players, I believe most of them are going to play more than just the official ones anyway.

There is a big difference between duels/2on2s/mixes and getting a 4on4 going, something you should be familiar with milton...

lets say a clan has 4-6 active players, most of them are grown up and either working or studying + they dont have qw as their main prio
this applies to many clans out there, i mean how many seasons have we seen where clans can even get all their officials played? now try to prac 2-5 times or more per week plus 1-2 official games. thats not gonna happen for a majority of the clans. the effects of this will be that almost no clan will waste their precious qw time on trying to learn a map they dont know will stick and besides that they dont wanna be bored out of their mind for 20-60 minutes trying to get a grip of a map instead of having fun playing a real teamgame on known battlegrounds...

cmt1b 4on4 games: 51
cmt3 4on4 games: 31
cmt4 4on4 games: 27

why arent the clans playing these maps more than this if they are so good and increasingly popular? some times in pracs when these are suggested ppl just tend to lol and say that they want to play a real map. so why is there so much debate from certain ppl to implement these and other maps to official tournaments? some ppl have told me to prac instead of playing officials if i dont wanna play custom maps, i would like to suggest to these players that they start to prac the customs and then suggest them for tournaments...

by all means, go ahead and prove me wrong this season but i seriously doubt that ppl will play much on the extra maps let alone have a good time doing it

Of course I'm familiar with the current situation. Earlier you claimed that people don't have _TIME_ to practice these maps but somehow they have time to play duels, 2on2s and mixes. The problem seems to be in their attitude towards 4on4, meaning that they don't enjoy it or find it too troublesome to run a clan or they just refuse to play against certain clans.


Again activity in leagues doesn't necessarily correlate with time spent playing. I've faced a situation more than once when a clan just wants to prac and prac and prac and refuses to play official games because they aren't in their "best shape".


Again the same thing I mentioned above + "we don't play vs. tVS (or some other clan)" -attitude. A great example from a few days ago is when a clan searched for prac with .qw and we asked if they'll play us. The answer was "we don't have 4" and yet they started a prac in maybe 20 minutes with some other clan. So yeah, 2-5 times per week is not gonna happen for tVS but again it has nothing to do with time.

The problem is that most 4on4 clangames happen between 20-00 swe time and it is generally hard to field enough players from the same clan even at these ours, ppl simply have other things to do at most evenings of the week. There will always be enough players to find mixed games, 2on2s and 1on1s because it isnt that hard to find players for this. The attitude towards 4on4 clan games is just fine but face it, when a clan has 4-8 players, must get atleast 4 of them to a certain date and time to face a clan in the same situation it will be hard. Thus they will be less willing to waste time on maps they dont know how to play. They will play the safe card and go with tb3 just to be somewhat sure of a good game.


This isnt so hard to understand, most clans out there dont wanna waste 20-60min of their qw night on total rapes. This is also understandable if they have like 1-2 nights per week to actually play a clangame/prac without having to use standins (which is often the case to even get pracs going). Also if they aspire to beat TvS (some clans actually still think its possible) they need all the prac they can get and would naturally dont play unless they have their best lineup. Conclusion: A TvS problem.


Again a TvS problem and not a general problem, on all other levels of quakeworld there will be clans on the same level that rather face eachother than getting raped by a more skilled clan. Yeah there are always 1-5 clans rising through the divisions but thats about it. The rest have been and will always be on the level they have always been at, and that too, imo, isnt so hard to understand either given the above discussion. It is not possible to become that much better with few pracs and mainly official games. For many it is indeed a question of time and fewer and fewer have the luxury to spend hours each night playing quake. Those who do are often found in 1on1, 2on2 or mixed 4on4s. Honestly, how many clans (not using standins) prac atleast 5 nights per week these days?

epic fail on this eql

Fail? People are talking a lot about the maps, this can be nothing but a success!

custom maps should be able in lower division like 3 and lower. 90% of votes is from low div clans/players who dont care and cant play on tb3. For example its nonsens to force div1 clans like TVS or SR to play customs. Thay dont want it anyway.. So if u do one more time voting u will see smt like that: div1 will b tb3-90% , div2 - 75% tb3, and div3 70% customs etc... of cours i could made mistakes in % but for sure tb3 will win in div1 and div2. Srry for my english

Every time there is 4on4 kenya map drama and Enraged is not even mentioned I die a little inside. ((

http://jago.pp.fi/maps/Quake/enraged.zip
Example demo of high-div players http://challenge-tv.com/index_old.php?mode=demodetail&demo=34493

how about, no.

im not sure fern, i think avenger has a point there

lower skilled players who havent played tb3 for 9+ years might be more willing to change maps...

besides, previous mapvotes per division have proven avenger right, i mean how many times did the div1 clans choose cmts? 1? 0?

why wouldn't they care if they voted? seems older players have a tougher time with logic :p

or the fact that many poles might have a slight problem with english ruskie...

i have legs

Avenger was talking about div1 players, not about poles. And they ain't retarted.... C'mon everything Avenger said was ridiculous, except for the fact that the cmt maps will hardly be played in div1 and 2, which unfortunately is true. Except for Milton in div1 nobody seems to be interested in something new.

You'd be surprised! As long as the players who actually want to learn the new maps don't let themselves get overruled by the players who hate anything that wasn't made 13 years ago then we might see a few interesting games in div1 yet.

Stand up for yourselves! Don't let the conservative players bully you and condemn you to playing tb3 only every single match and prac! In the playoffs you'll be extremely sorry if you didn't. :/

Yeah, if by interesting you mean when div1 final looks like a noobshow.

yea div1 teams are notorious for their lack of tdm map comprehension???????????????????????????????????????????

it isnt necessarily true that new things are for the better tho

yeah they comprehend actual tdm maps

Feel free to look like a noob blAze but don't be so sure everyone will do the same .

good one chiming in with your opinion, really moves the conversation along.

its not like the other side has any valid arguments so i just follow the general tone fern...

lol cmt1b rules

Yeah, but it's not really fair since none of the maps under vote are new to you, since you have played them extensively with SSC. Surely raping with quad amongst clueless players has it's own appeal but even then it's going to be one man show at best. Games like that just don't have much depth. I don't really mind learning one new map as it seems from the latest poll that at least the admins are sticking to a reasonable map pool. But removing 13 years of strategy, routine, timing etc. inevitably shows in the quality of the gameplay for a long, long time. Looks like the map pool will change again, so the last 5 years of on and off gaming in cmt4 are going to the trash bin and everything starts from scratch.