not that im trying to take your comments out of context but,


eh? thats exactly why you want to keep playing tb3.


the 13 years of strategy, routine and timing don't go away with the maps, you still have the same tdm knowledge, but you flatout refuse to apply it to anything else but what you have grown with, its "not fair" <3

I meant that ofc Milton is NOT going to look like a noob, on the contrary he will look like an ace since he is the only one who knows these maps by heart.


You are wrong. Major part of those elements is map specific. Why do you think there are so many players in both duel and tdm that are great in some particular map(s) but not so great in others? If those things could be applied to any map just like that, then there would be no map specialists, everyone would be equally good in any given map. Every map is an individual that takes years to master.

to be perfectly honest i think your perspective is a tad inflated. If you have 13 years or whatever under your belt like that, you should be able to master any map that is thrown at you within the quakeworld gameplay framework. It requires the motivation and desire which you already admitted to not having to learn them, which would make your vote unrelated to the maps.

Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. Why wouldn't I have motivation to learn a new map if it could be done over night as you imply? The reason I don't have motivation for it, is because I know that it takes a small eternity and that long period of low quality gaming is not appealing to me. I enjoy qw as an old, established e-sports that it is. If I want a fun new game, I play something else, because changing a map doesn't turn qw into one.

no, not overnight, and not a small eternity either as you're implying right now.
and you pretty much just said it yourself there, you enjoy QUAKEWORLD as the old established game that it is, not the maps that you prefer to see chizzled in stone.

WARNING: LOTS OF TEXT. I swear I have a few points in here that can be debated, but don't bother reading it if you genuinely don't have an interest in the future of quakeworld or the implications of implementing new maps.



You're not exactly devoid of natural talent, blaze. You have the potential to learn a map to a division one standard and probably be a pioneer for new tactics and strategy, and that's exciting! It's a new way to play quakeworld!

How often do you see things that surprise you on dm3? I'm nowhere near your level of experience and I haven't seen anything new on tb3 in years. You and the other div1 players have the potential to move the game forward and inject some new life into it instead of sitting on tb3 and waiting for it to die.

Of course you won't immediately be at the level you are on the old maps, but there was a time when those maps were new too. Were the players and teams who developed the advanced tactics on these maps less impressive as division 1 sides because they didn't have the rigorous, unshaking routine that you have today? Was qw less fun back then? Was qw less competitive back then? Quite the opposite. People fought every night to discover new methods of winning. Decision-making was refined over time through trial and error and in-depth discussions with compatriots. Isn't that an interesting prospect?

We'll likely never see the activity of the old days again, but people sitting in mixes every night playing dm3 over and over again is making people jaded. They have no enthusiasm for the game and no reason to practice to improve because, well, after 13 years is anyone really expecting to reach a new plateau of awareness on the old maps? Clans sit idle in between official games because they've learned everything they can. We won't see a sudden huge increase in activity just by introducing some magical new maps, but does that mean we just resign ourselves to the impending death of qw 4on4? The game might will still die if we reject the maps completely and just sit on our asses in endless dm3 mixes and whine about "kenya" instead of actually giving them a chance, which is why we have to be positive!

[tangent]

I'm not sure if this is the case with you, and with your skill I wouldn't peg you as someone with low confidence, but a lot of players are just afraid that they won't be as good as others on new maps because they play differently, or they're afraid that other players who have practiced them will be insurmountably superior and they resign themselves to defeat, which just makes them hate quakeworld even more. But and understanding of the mechanics of quakeworld and the ability to communicate and fight are more important than map knowledge alone, and a competitive map knowledge can be acquired in a relatively short space of time, while the others can not be acquired at all by some people.

Better players will still be better players, and worse players will still be worse players. There will be some variation in players of approximate skill as some of them take to the new maps because it suits their style of play, but isn't that a good thing? You're making room for more varied talents and skills in the framework of the game that we love!

To compare it to 1on1, Reppie is arguably the finest aerowalk player of all time. The introduction of it to the map pool almost certainly contributed strongly to his dominance in 1on1 tournaments in the last few years. Does that mean he doesn't deserve those accolades? He showed more talent in mastering that map with his own style than, for example, the countless dm4 robots who play the way they were taught the last 13 years through mindless grinding and practice with no real thought.

If someone succeeds on a new map, they deserve it, and if they don't, they can still win on the strength of their old maps if they are superior players. The game will not be cheapened by the introduction of new maps, as long as thought is given to the maps used; It will be expanded, and having new ways to enjoy quakeworld without compromising it can only be a good thing.

Well, cmt3 has been in at least two leagues that we have played in the last couple of years, and we certainly did our best to prac it for them. Still, we totally suck in it still.

So how long is long to you fern?

For me two years of suckage with no improvement in sight is a long time. cmt4 has been around since hib and xamp was playing in slackers, and that we can somewhat play by now. Of course that too, is still very basic compared to tb3, but at least you have some kind of idea what to do and how to do it for the most time.

It's exactly the extensive knowledge of the map and the way it's played that leads to those surprises and moments of brilliance. In fact I would say that it is exactly in dm3, the most played map of all time, that I have been most surprised or able to surprise my opponent myself. Sometimes I wish I'd taken and saved a demo of all the times I tricked my opponent in dm3, it would have made a good movie. How often then, have you been surprised in the newer maps, cmt4 or cmt3? I would have to say never. I can't think of any clever tricks or brilliant moments from those maps. It's just basic play, 20 minutes of basic grinding.


What was impressive then, is not impressive today. I just watched some old FF - E demo the other day, and was surprised how remarkably unimpressive it was. Yet I remember how good they seemed back then. It's funny how things change. Personally I have more fun with qw nowadays. Back then it was constant fighting with crappy connections and everyone was taking themselves way too seriously. Nowadays it's much more relaxed and playing dm3 mixeds and trying to trick guys and shaft them in the back is just good fun.

The time you spend whining here you better go prac that "kenya" maps or go play 9999 dm3, because we have more than 150 replays that are just the same, some people trying to say that their ideas are better than opposite ideas. Please, we alredy have tb5 at EQL, you can like it, you can hate it,maybe you will try to play it,maybe you will quit. But talking the same over and over here at qw.nu forums is just a waste of time IMHO. We alredy know who like tb3, who like tb5 who like tb7 and we alredy know why, so maybe is time to stop this pointless discussion?

fair point sir : O

We still don't know which kenya to prac and there is no mix going on atm, so the next best thing is to whine at the forums, don't you think?

Watch some porn or something =P


j/k (=

in all fairness i think discussing this can only help raising awareness. especially the anti-kenya faction tends to keep quiet and 'vote with their feet' by whining on servers and refusing to play certain maps (maybe just my biased opinion). i really prefer having a halfway civilized discussion on here.

as long as topics get many replies as this it shows there's interest in the game and people care about making it better. that's a good sign and maybe shows there can be some positive change in quakeworld or at least i hope so.

On the contrary! It's nice to actually engage in an intelligent debate about maps for a change instead of the usual arguments which consist of "all maps anyone will ever make are shit compared to tb3", "only noobs like kenya because they can't play tb3" and "I'm too lazy", and maybe some discussion will change some spectators' minds? Maybe I'll decide that shit kenyamap players need to go play warsow, quake live, or start their own shit kenya tournament for shit kenyas?


I'll concede your point that surprises are generated by the misdirection of expectations, and the more expectations you have, the more likely that on will be subverted. But is it not also true that with, for example, my limited knowledge of e2m2 (which is well below what I'd consider "tournament level" that anything which happens outside my expectations is a surprise? Sure the first 5 times you play a map you're not going to know shit and nothing will truly be a "surprise" because you don't have a goddamn clue what's going on, where quad is likely to come from, what are the options for defending against it, where the lg ambushes are likely to occur, but it's astounding how fast people adapt when they're actually interested.

I remember one of the last cmt1b mixes I played I hid behind the pent cells pillar (it's a tight squeeze and I probably should have kept that little trick for tourney play ) with RA+LG when being chased by enemy quad from RA. He walked past me up the stairs and headed towards YA while I silently followed behind him and waited for quad to run out before nailing him in the back. Was he surprised? I should hope so, but he learned from that and, when I tried the exact same trick a couple of games later, he stood at the top of the stairs for a couple of seconds when he lost my trail to check to see if I was following and spread me all over the wall when I rounded the corner (I think it was hlt. Fuck you, hlt).

That single series of games produced, not only a number of other things that surprised me, but things that I had literally never seen before. The metagame for cmt1b was evolving before my very eyes! And, surprise surprise, the div1 player was handing me my div3 ass.


Obviously skill is going to go up with time, and I wasn't trying to say that FF transported 7 years forward in time would be just as good as the Lege Artis or FOM of the day. I'm trying to say that they dominated the scene with their talent and skill which developed faster and better than the competition's and that is impressive; John Logie Baird inventing his "televisor" was a milestone in information technology, but compared to what we have today it is a pathetic piece of technology. Baird's achievement is infinitely more impressive than the guy who refined the manufacturing process so we can play at refresh rates in excess of 60hz, but I know I wouldn't want to play without that advancement.

You said that you remember how good they seemed back then because you didn't know what was truly possible on the maps, and that is analogous to us today. We don't know every thing that can be done on maps like cmt1b, but we can discover them! We won't always respond correctly to an escaped enemy RL there, but when we know what we do wrong we can correct it! We already have a huge head start on the pioneers with our 13 years of experience with the quakeworld deathmatch mechanics.

I'll admit that you do have to leave your comfort zone of second-nature decisions on new maps because it isn't all instinctual. Maybe it's because you're subconsciously leaving your comfort zone that you don't enjoy new maps? Personally, I revel in the fresh challenges presented by a new map, but maybe that's because I'm aware that is what they are; challenges, and I don't expect things to go well right away because I have always been a mid-low player. I probably wouldn't learn too much from map play, even over a couple of seasons, if I couldn't try to enjoy it.

You make it sound like we've played cmt3 for two years, which isn't true at all. We might have played our first prac in cmt3 two years ago but:
1) We didn't play it too often even during the leagues (not just our fault though)
2) When was the last time we played cmt3? I'd guess it's been at least a year since that.

So in my opinion we haven't actually played cmt3 almost at all (probably 20 rounds max) and we can't expect to have all the routine there. And when you're referring to "13 years of dm3", you aren't at least talking about yourself then since I know that you've had at least one long break from qw and you told me yourself that you didn't start quake right away in '96 because it was so laggy in comparison to Doom. Maybe all this is not so important but you're just trying to make it sound so impossible to learn these new maps by exaggerating.


I agree that one needs knowledge of the map to create a surpise but you don't have to know every small detail to do so. I don't remember for how long it actually took me to learn some of the tricks in for example cmt4 but not two years or even two months. Just by playing the map for some rounds and then jumping there alone can give you ideas about new tactics and possible places for surprises. And I have some demos to prove it - I can almost see :WTF on the faces of my enemies when I jump on them with my 20% lg.

What I mean't was that cmt3 has been around in top qw for a couple of years and I think the amount we have played it is the realistic amount of playing you can expect for a new map with all things considered. I think we tried to play it in every prac when the leagues were on and even tried some 2on2 to learn the map. Yeah I'd say we have played it some tens of times probably, which like you say is almost not at all. Kenya supporters just seem to have totally unrealistic expectations on the time and effort it takes to develop gameplay in a map. I agree that on cmt4 one can already expect some finer aspects of gameplay but then it has been around in top-qw for many years longer than cmt3. And ofc at least in my opinion the map itself also has more variation than cmt3, allowing you to do different things. I think the problem for me is that learning new maps feels like work, not fun, so I guess that's where people are simply different and there is not much that can be done about it.