i still dont see why someone shouldnt be able to pick their best/favourite map, it doesnt make sense to take away that from the players

Mediocre players are annoyed by the fact that someone truly masters something.

top notch psychoanalysis by mister blaze

The guilty dog barks first.

that's a saying.

edit, btw i guess you missed the parts where i said i would play anything in both duel and 4on4.
but it's just a grand conspiracy by "the kenya side" to take away the BEST maps from the people we so envy
don't be a complete lunatic.

Is that like "He who smelt it dealt it"?

I don't miss things. You were the first to comment and with an offended tone, so it seemed befitting. I'm just calling it the way I see it, don't think it needs deep psychoanalysis to notice the obvious. People get bored having their ass handed to them and start calling for a change, new maps, new mods, new something. Seen it a thousand times over. The casual players who are never great in anything, always get bored fast and move on to try another new game...

are you for real? you can read tone in text really? that's superb. your argument however isn't what is offending me, it's your logic you apply to this discussion, you're questioning the motives of people who are arguing for something.

i could just as easily say that you are scared about losing your routine in 4on4 when you have to learn new maps, but that's not even remotely relevant to the discussion.

We, Are, Arguing, The, Maps.

Hadn't heard that one before. Would that make sense in the context though?

So what? When someone's motives seem questionable, I think it's right to question them.


Uhm, we voluntarily picked the new map many times and I wasn't scared, just bored. So yes, you could say that, but then, like most of what you say, it wouldn't make much sense.


What else is new in qw.

really? you picked the new maps cause you were bored, or because you had milton to carry you on it against teams who didn't prac it at all. that's more using your advantages than "being bored"
gimme a fuckin break

Lol, you totally missed the point. I meant I was bored playing them, but we were not scared to pick a new map. Of course the reason we picked them was to gain competitive advantage. (And my personal reason was just to proof my point that its kinda boring to play and spec). Ofc I am not bored at playing tb3, on the contrary.

your "point" isn't proven just by having people who don't prac it play on it and then saying SEE I TOLD YOU.
you have no clue how good maps are until you stop knee-jerk rejecting them.

I don't understand what knee-jerk rejection you are talking about. The new map was one of our most played in EQL and I wouldn't mind at all seeing dm2 replaced with doomed in duel tournaments. My point was that having new map in the EQL map pool is going to result in boring low quality games, and by playing it I think I proved my point since it was exactly that.

ok agreed, thanks buddy

edit, i won't disagree they were shitty games, but that's unrelated to the maps, that's attitude and opinion



OMG THE MAP IS SHIT

The map itself isn't the point. The map is ok, but the games in it sucked. That was the point. I rather keep playing good games on bad maps, than play bad games on good maps. In the end, the map itself is quite irrelevant.

well that's an acceptable opinion, but this started from you questioning the motives of people who want to give worthy maps a chance to become accepted in 4on4[edit] or 1on1[/edit].

we're not going get much further than this, enough arguing for me <3

A bad map limits the ability for a game to be good.. For example, if you have a scale of 1 - 10 for quality of map, and 1 - 10 for quality of game relative to map, it would look like: someshittyepisodemap 2 game 2, dm3 8 game 8-9.

That's pretty much the entire point of people making new maps, not only to shift the meta-game to keep the game fresh and exciting, but to make the potential for great games as high as possible. So really the repetition to form this 'skill' and divine 'mastery' of the map, is ultimately a fallacy as you aren't playing to the potential of the game.

In starcraft they are constantly making new competitive maps each season because they need to keep the meta-game fresh. This is so that the game can continue to be exciting, players allowed to be innovative with new tactics/strategy, players with particular races get a better chance than the last season - this is real skill and mastery, the players who know their game so well that they apply their knowledge of mechanics and other insights to become better than everyone else. Yes they practice 10+ hours a day, but it doesn't take longer than 30-40play throughs of a map to become adept on it.

Look at Milton with doomed for example, he hasn't played it much but he totally gets it. I would much prefer to watch him play or other active players on doomed than watch dm4/aero/ztn/dm2/dm6. This is because I get to watch Milton, or whoever else is playing. You get to see why players are truly good, not just this rinsed out mimicry that is seen from so much repetition from players who are not as talented but have grinded and copied the best.

My point is that this mastery argument doesn't actually make sense if you look at any other competitive scene or even the concept of diminishing returns, it just looks like to me that people are stubborn and conservative.. it's like the decisions are all biased towards the players who barely even play/don't play at all.

ddk, not necessarily. Take e1m2 for example. A terrible map on itself, but the games are usually pretty good. The real problem is bad games and when the cause for that is a bad map, then you may need to do something. Like dm2 in duels.

fern, I was actually questioning the motives of people who want to prevent others from playing their best map in duel tournaments. I'm don't remember where this turned into a map discussion, which is in fact off topic.

The starcraft comparison is totally pointless, it's a strategy game. The balance of required skills in fps is, and should be, different.

The problem in your argumentation is that you act like fast learning and strategy development is the only skill that matters, when in fact it is a skill that never had much value in qw scene. QW is like karate where you hone your skills in thousand year old moves to perfection with endless repetition. That's what it's about.

Yeah but blaze, e1m2 is like dm3, by luck a map in qw that definitely works with regards to the mechanics of qw and the gametype of 4on4. We're not talking about maps by themselves, why would we? we are talking about 4on4! I would give e1m2 a strong 7!

Honestly, the comparison is completely relevent.. I mean, it's funny when I see so many juxtapositions to football, yet when I suggest starcraft you don't see it :E. In starcraft, micro = aim/movement macro = map routine/timing/teamplay strategy/tactics = strategy/tactics. The only other thing is the psychology stuff which is universal in all sports. It's the most relevent comparison that can be made.

Perhaps in the matters discussed, qw is more comparable to football?


Yes I'm sure all kinds of skills exist in all games in one form or another. Like I said it's about balance. You put all the weight on skills, that traditionally are not the main point of qw.

In 13 years, 2 new maps have made into mainstream dueling. Clearly applying your skills into new maps has not been a major factor in qw.

I dont wanna learn doomed because milton and you likes it. I still suck on dm4, dm6 , dm2, aero, ztn, and i want to improve there. i dont have time for all of the 5 map, so i just pracc on 2-3 now. My opponents are oldskool pro players, they always beat me, but i really enjoy it, cos i can kill them sometimes too(just a few frags per game . I dont give a fuck to win or loose, thats why i play with them. Once i defeated a very good oldskool player(he is inactive now) on skull badly, because he just played 2-3x times there. I never wanted to play there vs him again, cos i dont need cheap gameplay, and cheap victory. Maybe we are different people, we want different things from qw, dont talk sense anymore in this matter, cos this is rather a personal choice. The sign up is started, i registered it, the rules are clear, the map pool is clear. my english suxx but if i write it in hungarian, akkor lófaszt nem értenél bel&#337;le WHy the fuck are we arguing about maps, create a kenya tourney, it is that fucking simple and i promise ill sign up just pls stop this madness in every fucking topic thx. gl hf for the tourney, seeya on dm2