This is not true or at least won't be true with properly implemented antilag. It won't change the game with 13 ms pings. And no matter what your ping will be, it won't be easier to hit with LG than it is to hit with 13 ms without antilag.

i dont have time, or decent english to read all the post, but i would like to know how this feature effects on my lightning gun. Im using just the raw bolt, i dont have crosshair when im shafting, i just concentrate on the bolt. without fakeshaft ofc.

This actually is important and not very well explained in your sentences. You are talking about server reality in the moment the packets arrive.

There is no such a thing as "the real reality" of the game. Even the lowest 0 ms pinging player has some delay (due to hardware and software limitations, speed of light, etc.) and his image of the game and the server's image of the game differ.

So start with that before server-side antilag, there was the state of the game seen by the server and also states of the game as seen by the clients. In 4on4 game you have 9 different images of the game - one as seen by server, 8 as seen by each of the players.

Now, after server-side antilag is turned on, server still uses it's own the state of the game, _but_ at some point it looks back into the history of this state and uses this history to do some calculations.

So, finally - things still happen only on the server, only the server reality is used. And still there is no such thing as the real reality, there never was. I doubt anyone here (except maybe Tonik) has a perfect complete image of how client predictions and what not is being handled at the server and how it all affects the server's image of the game. Anyone who claims he knows what is the "real reality" of the game is in my opinion a liar.

So it doesn't "antilag" 13 ms lag to 0ms, so that your lg would always hit at the crosshair? Even with very low ping, the real lg beam has always lagged behind the crosshair.

Yes but this "image" from history is not the current "server reality" image, but a simulated client side image. And that's where this whole thing goes fucked.

i like the challenge, thats why i play quakeworld, thats why i turned my cross off, fakesuck off, and im not on low ping(52wg-38x4). So with this new feature, i should turn fakeshaft on, get a BIG crosshair?

I guess you need to change the way you use lg completely now.

That's not quite true. QuakeWorld has up to 20ms of enemy client prediction. So with 13ms you have always hit the enemies where you actually see them. The LG beam has always been a bad indication about where the LG actually hit.

But yes, current version changes the point where you have to hit with 13ms, like I said before. My patch should fix that. The amount it's changes is for enemy strafing full speed is about 1/8th or 1/16th of a player width. Currently I'm not quite sure which, but one or the other

I thought that before antilag the best way to shaft was to use your crosshair and that this does not change with antilag.

This has always been a very bad way to aim LG. The beam that you see is lagged too much.

Without antilag you need to aim somewhere about halfway between your crosshair and the beam you see (without fakeshaft)
With antilag you need to aim like you would with 13ms: just use your crosshair

Are you saying that with 13ms, it doesn't hit halfway between the visible beam and crosshair then? Why is 13ms different from 26ms in this regard?

No, it was about keeping the lagged model on top of the opponent as well as possible. If it was enough to keep crosshair on the target, then lag would have never had any effect in the first place. It's because the model lags the more you lag, that it became more difficult to shaft.

It's because of the client side prediction of other players. QW predicts them up to 20ms.
So with 13ms you hit exactly on your crosshair.
With higher pings you hit increasingly towards the middle of the beam and crosshair as the amount of unpredicted enemy movement increases.

For me the only problem left after Medars fixes with using this in tourneys / officials, seems to be his last point in #12: "4) Moving platforms are not antilagged". But implement the fixes fast, please!

That is unless there is something more I'm not aware of. To lower the actual impact ms have on the game can only be a good thing. Keep working on it! The vision of this project is great, even though it got sneaked in crap way I would like to see this feature without the mentioned issued. As for now, default OFF and possibility to turn it on if most of the players agrees to is the best way. And if client side antilag is a dead project, don't have indicators for it during the count down that shows a false value for it.

I don't really understand how the player prediction affects where your shaft hits. I mean the real shaft hit point lags behind even if there is no one else on the server right? And the client side prediction is just prediction, if the player changed direction you wont hit even if you see his predicted model on a different location...?

Your LG beam always hits your crosshair. The beam that you see without fakeshaft is a delayed view from your previous shot.

What changes though is where the enemies are when that hit is calculated.

If your ping is x ms, it means that when your shoot command reaches the server the data you had to make that shot is x ms old. Now this would mean that the players have moved x ms since you made the shot and so you would need to shoot x ms ahead of them. But because of the client side player prediction what you saw was a predicted situation that is max((x-20), 0) ms behind the server. So that's how much you need to predict compared to what you see on your screen. This is without antilag.

I see. I wonder if it's the player prediction that creates the strange effect when sometimes you just feel that you hit insanely and other times it feels like you are shooting air, even though you think your own shafting is no different...

Ive read both threads trying to figure out exactly what blaze is trying to find out. And it all comes down to this: Im an idiot... Ive been trying to predict my lg using the beam the whole friggin time and now you say that its just fake? haha

Medar:
You say with antilag you aim with the crosshair ? the beam is just lagged ?
When cl_fakeshaft was accepted it was because it would not give any advantage when using LG right ? so even if u were aiming with crosshair you would still fail to hit unless you aim with lagged beam.
And when i say advantage i dont mean one player gets advantage over another, but in the sense you require less skill.
Explain me this so i can continue argueing.

That is true. With antilag you always aim at your crosshair. Without antilag you aim at your crosshair with 13ms ping and somewhere between your crosshair and your (fakeshaft 0) beam on higher pings.


I'm not aware of the arguments used for/against cl_fakeshaft.

So what are you saying ?! using antilag you aim with your crosshair LG with 0ms ?
Isnt minimum ping 13ms ? Why would LG have 0ms and rest of weapons 13ms ?
The whole point of fakeshaft is not considered a cheat is because you cant aim with crosshair, and now antilag aiming with crosshair is not considered cheat ?

IIRC in the fakeshaft debate it was acknowledged that it gives a small advantage.

The ONLY advantage is more smooth visible beam movement, wich has nothing to do with hitting more LG %, i shaft worse with fakeshaft. And that is not my question.

When you play with 13ms the opponent you see on your screen has been predicted by your client ahead by 13ms, so that you infact aim with your crosshair antilag or no antilag.

I will reiterate once more: At least my plan is to not change how you hit with 13 ms at all and make hitting with higher pings more similar to what you get with 13 ms.

Well the problem is that for about 13 years that was the way to do it. Until someone decided it needs to work in another way, and changed it in secret.

The beam has always been 13 ms of enemy movement in wrong position with 13 ms ping. And 20 ms in the wrong position with higher pings.

Like I have said before, if my patch will be accepted this won't be changed in any way.

That still does not explain why aiming with crosshair isnt an issue now...

Simple tests can determine if antilag is a cheat.
If you say 13ms should not have any advantage with antilag, then a player in povdmm4 lg% should remain the same antilag or not, if he can get higher lg% with antilag something obviously doesnt work.
Same applies if same player with 50ms does higher lg% than he does with 13ms, means antilag gives advantage over higher pings.

If you want to discuss banning cl_fakeshaft for some crazy reason, please create an another thread.


Yes, these kind of tests make sense. Although you have to keep in mind that the differences we are talking here are really small and there are other factors at work too so creating good test data might be problematic. Also instead of it meaning that "antilag is a cheat" it means that there are issues that need to be corrected (see my patch for example).

I just played a couple of povdmm4s vs xero, i usually get around 40-45% vs him. With cl_fakeshaft 1 on antilagged server pangela i had 45-50%.
So yes, antilag obviously helps in that regard.

I didnt specify fakeshaft, i said aiming with crosshair and obviously fakeshaft doesnt allow you to do that, so if this is an issue and there is a need for a ban request feature, it should be antilag.


With what pings ?