So this is me venting because this seriously pisses me off.

Why do people want to play the same old maps like dm6 and ztndm3? I'm trying newer maps on my FFA server and people get anal because they have to LEARN new ones (Takes 2 minutes to learn a new map).

catwalk
zxcdm1
lacrima
utressor
ac4
baldm8
dm6++
xntrick
ztndm6
spinev2

That's the map list right now. They are all good for 8 to 10 players, the max clients on the server is 10.

I see that the Euro server has a better variety. I think most NA players must be closed minded or something.

Thoughts?

Same thing in Europe. People wanna change maps every now and then because they don't feel at home with some of them..
Personally i wanna play them all and if i would want something familiar i would go with e1m1-e1m6 or something.. can't get less kenya then that =)

I'm with you Darin! Some maps we just do not need in FFA today, e.g., like dm4 or dm6!

For FFA I agree it's only fun to have alot of weird/fun maps for variety, I always enjoyed the rotation of maps on xs4all server.

But for all other modes I think there are several reasons why many like the old maps. To me it's not so much about the map itself, it's more like
how the match is played out and the players playing. If you compare to most sports the setup is exactly the same over and over. Lets take soccer: the field is the exact same square grass field it has been for ever, and a round ball and 2 goals. How come a football player can play this game for his entire life and never get bored of it?
The old standard maps will allways be the most competetive ones since everyone knows them to the bone.

But for FFA im with you.. maybe you should play in euro then? Anti-lag works good

People want to play the same maps over and over because they enjoy them.
I enjoy playing dm3 (4v4) and ztndm3 (<10 ffa) over and over. They are great maps and I would still play QW if they were the only modes/maps available. But I also like playing a variety of other maps as well.

As for learning new maps, ffa is the best way IMO. That's basically how I learnt all the main maps.

Comparing QW to soccer. Never gets old, does it.

No and no. The same field is used in soccer because
- the game, its rules and everything was designed for one particular field
- it would be unrealistic, difficult for players, difficult for spectators and way too expensive to have more than one playing field at one stadium
- it would be difficult for anyone who wants to practice soccer to practice on all the fields, you'd have to pack your stuff and actually physically move to the other field(s)
- there is no 'knowledge' or 'map skill' in football; even if you have never played football but only seen it on TV once, you 'know' the playing field as good as the current soccer champions, there are no magical shortcuts, items spawning, placement of ammo, teleports or anything you can learn to master in a tricky way
- there isn't much you can do in a design of flat (2D) soccer playing field anyway, i mean what would you want to do? add a lava trap somewhere?

It's funny I have to write down these obious facts and I would not bother if some 'randomdude' would come up with the "soccer argument" again, but if a long established div1 player uses it as his main argument for something... oh well.

why are you trying? you're wrong you kenyanab ahaha =D

I am also waiting for "you are looking at it too much from developer's point of view" argument. Anyone?

I think it also has to do with the fact that if you're not familiar with a map, you can't rule the map. You (darin) say it takes 2 minutes to learn a new map, but that depends on the map. A new Tiddles map, like dark-terror-ffa might indeed take 2 minutes, but for lot's of other maps, that's just not enough. I seen a huge difference in fragcount of players that suddenly were not that impressive when they weren't playing their beloved dm2, so to speak.

Also: some maps are just not nice. I like it when there's good connectivity and it doesn't show that it's just a bunch of rooms connected with long corridors. ztndm3 and 4 does have corridors, but still good connectivity, so there's exceptions. Hell, no that I'm thinking about it, it probably really does come down to whether I know the map well or not

I have to be honest and admit that I also have skipped a lot of maps on xs4all and got pissed when other ppl didn't press 'next'.

However, sometimes you just have to give the new map a chance. The fastest way to learn a new map is to make a screenshot in spectator mode and then seriously take a look at the item placement and where teleporters go. If the whole map layout won't fit in one snapshot, then I'm usually not gonna learn the map. Here's an example of a map that DOES fit into one screenie:


When I look at that screenie, it's a lot easier to picture in your mind where the hell you are in this 'new' map...

An example of a map that I just couldn't be arsed to learn for a long time is death32c. I just didn't understand why the fuck ppl wanted to play this weird mixture of dm maps. I hated how it's teleports are so damn confusing. Like when you're going into the tele at GA in DM6 you'll teleport to dm4. Logically, you'd expect that when you go back into that tele, you'll arive back at GA in dm6..... but instead, you'll arive in the center room and when you press back button into that tele, you'll arive at ssg in dm4. I mean WTF!!!! In my opinion, the tele you just came out, should bring you back to where you came from.

BTW: lacrima is a very nice dark special place to be, isn't it ? I remember playing it against bots. It's beautiful.

death32c is the best ffa map to me because you have that lots of connections you are talking about, you have many ways to reach a weapon, you have many ways to escape with 100/0 sg: from an enemy; it is more typical here that you are actually having a fight equipped against an enemy who is equipped too and there is no one else around

in other ffa maps typical fight is you are not equipped and enemy is and you get raped, or vice versa - you are raping boomstickers. also when you meet equipped enemy he / she is busy with shooting loads of other random boomstickers and you can just safely shaft him / her in the back... not so often in death32c

so most ffa maps soon become a routine of "where to stand and kill floods of innocent boomstickers", it does not matter how well you fight 1 vs 1 or how well you aim. death32c kinda reduces this factor of play.

I just randomly picked soccer as an example.. but the setup of pretty much every sport is pretty simplistic.

I never said I wanted to improve soccer in any way so no need for all those facts, but thanks anyway

My only point and paralell I was trying to make was in where the "fun" can come from. Even thou the setup is simplistic soccer players can enjoy playing soccer their entire lifes.
So my point was that QW players can also have fun playing the same maps over and over again. Because the fun and variety can also come from playing different players/teams and the games turn out different every time.
I was only trying to give an answer for why some ppl can enjoy playing the same maps.

There is no right or wrong but personally I rather play a well established map with as much competetive as possible rather then the "perfect" designed map.

"It takes 2 minutes to learn a new map"
Yes it does take 2 minutes to learn the _layout_ of it. I also think that people usually aren't that picky about maps when it comes to FFA. Sure some maps get next_map'ed but you can't like EVERY map.

I guess another reason why some people are angry is because of the FTE mod I am using. People are used to Degy's mod where you can just type dm6 or whatever to vote. Instead now they can only use next_map...

But the FTE mod is a straight forward FFA mod which I like, so I see nothing wrong with it.

Some people are afraid of losing on maps they don't know. Because it shows how little imagination and skill they have - and also, that they are good at QW only because of constant repeating the same things over and over. It doesn't feel good when some "randomdude" stand up against you pretty well, even though you have years of experience and know layouts of areo dm2 dm3 dm4 dm6 better than your own house. If someone takes game too seriously (and a lot of people do), his pride is crushed. That is huge shock.

Herb you are exactly right. Honestly though I don't know why some people don't want to play different maps. There are TONS of QW maps good and bad, and they won't give any of them a chance.

hehe herb.. im so tired of the "afraid of losing" and "being lazy" arguments. There is a diffrence between being lazy and that you simply dont WANT to. People can play whatever maps they want.. I rather loose on dm3 then win on kenya#14 so for me it's not about winning/loosing when it comes to maps, they just have to be fun to play..
I have taken part in pretty many custom maps tournaments etc but I still prefer tb3 over them, and anyone can have their opinion..

dm4s layout i easier than my houses :[

EQL 4on4 Ladder will start very soon and the map pool will be large. Also we will listen to the community and possibley add maps if they feel there are some good ones missing. So sign up for that as soon as it is announced if you wanna play more maps then the normal tb3.

what are u waiting for?

Updates to the site.

Episode maps ftw

But the map has to be good, skull, dad (before zaka second-guessed himself), sacredb1, tuhnu, vdm3 for examples

Of course map has to be good. Why would anyone want to play poor designed maps? Skull is good example of more competetive custom map. q3dm6qw is great for FFA or CA. Just don't try to play them other way, like dm4 on ffa servers with 8 players, it's stupid choice.

Are we really having this discussion again ?

I've played my first clan 4on4 (or was it 5on5) on dm3 in 1997 and even today I feel like I'm picking up little things that have to do with timing specific attacks, shot-angles, perfecting jumping etc. On top of that every game is different and even the way the first minute goes in 4on4 is always interesting because so many things can happen. One time you can take q+eyes, get to ya ssg kill 1st enemy rl, deny enemy pent 2nd rl, take it with ya and be set for next q only to get shafted by some horny bastard from behind at sng when getting mh right before second quad. OR you spawn get rl but get immediately telefragged and run around with bs dying for the next 10 minutes :] In comparison I've played cmt1b maybe 10 times (I wasn't active when it was used before) and basically I have no idea of good team play there, everyone sucks at it if you ask me. I don't want to waste time waiting for a whole scene of reluctant people to churn out the same number of rounds required for perfecting the game play to what I enjoy, and I'm certainly not alone. Even if it's an even game, I get like 10% enjoyment from playing some obscure kenya map where everyone sucks vs basic dm3. cmt1b's in last fall's eql were prolly some of the most boring qw I've played and specced in years. A lot more boring than getting raped on dm2 vs tvs.

I understand that newer players want more variety especially in ffa, because at least then you have a chance, it evens out things a lot. But then again I never liked small-type ffa because of the exact reasons that were listed here earlier. I'm not interested in finding the perfect camp spot and basically shooting nogear bs spawns. Although I can admit that you can learn a lot about survival which can be useful in 4on4 as well.

And yet....some ppl make dm4 almost an art in 16 player ffa. I suck at it myself, but I've seen ppl clean house. Yes, there's some camping going on, but they do move around to get armor and quad.

niomic, i understand what are you talking about, but i don't want to get rid of old maps and replace them with kenya. "the big x" (x is number between 3 and 5, depends who's talking) should be core, used in most important tournaments. They have flaws, but it is proven that they work, and even if some may be unbalanced, players know how to counter disadvantages. But it wouldn't hurt if at least one good custom map would be in the pool.

I play Quakelive duel match from time to time with my friend, usually on Campgrounds (even though i suck at this - my railgun skill is crippled for obvious reasons, and to kill enemy i must get close and personal). But we like to give new maps a try when we have enough of it - it keeps game "fresh", brings back entertainment side of gaming. Sometimes i win on these "other" maps, sometimes i lose, but i don't care about either. Sometimes it's good to sit in front of monitor, simply relax, and enjoy the mayhem without worrying about timing, tactics, item placement, skill difference. Think of it as of holiday - it is for you to regenerate, put new ideas in your mind, so you'll be more effective back at work.

You should understand that this is YOUR opinion, and other players may have a different opinion. That's why we are having this discussion again, everyone thinks he is right and everyone else is not. So i'm not going to say my opinion here as it's totally worthless.

I think Quake has been like this for a long time, I've only been playing Quake around 5 years now and people still want to play the same maps and not try new ones .

The whole point of playing them is to make them not obscure. Let's take CMT3. In Autumn 2008, it was played 6 times, but then in Autumn 2009 it was played 39 times. Surely that indicated a significant rise in acceptance, and, at this stage, people who don't know it are in the minority. CMT1b was played 27 times in the Autumn 2009 season. Obviously there are many people who don't have a clue about the map, but that's just after one season.

Honestly, what kind of an idiot wouldn't be able to learn the layout of a map perfectly in 5-10 plays? You don't have to relearn how to play Quakeworld, you just have to learn the basic nuances of the map and then you can begin to apply your decade of experience to it to raise your level of play. People usually come around corners looking in the direction they are headed, people try to get to quad using the shortest route possible if they're in a hurry, people will try to get armour after they have been in a fight, people will ambush you with shaft in suitable areas, people will try to go to less-trafficked part of the maps when they are trying to escape with a weapon, people will hide from quad or attempt to set up an unbreakable defensive wall, 6 people will attempt to jump on pent right as it spawns. None of these things have changed, and they can be applied to any map once you learn the basic layout.

90% of which were tVS or tks pick. If 3 or more clans in a division started to pick it as their home map, then others might react by praccing. Otherwise it's not worth it competitively.


I might be such an idiot. I'll let you know if I ever get to 10. Haven't had many opportunities as my clan doesn't want to play it. I average about 2 rounds a week, so 10 rounds is actually quite a lot.