And there's where a gpl Quake fits in.

Bunny really broke QWTF. I can't think of a way to balance the game with it active. And I'm all in favour to banning it from TF. But I don't feel the same about bunnyhoppig in DM. I can't bunny and I got dominated in FFA but that's because my lack of skills. In TF the objective is to take enemy's flag and bring it to your base (ORLY???? ), a key aspect of the game is avoiding the enemy, and bunnying people can avoid the enemies more easily which in turns leads to no fight at all and that's, obviously, no fun. Nowadays, TF matches (at least the ones I play) are just a bunch of freedomrunners jumping around. In DM, on the other hand, you can run as much as you wish but to win you'll have to fight sometime. It surely can be an obstacle for a newbie, but also are lack of aim, item timing, etc. In the end, as I see, bunny is just another aspect of the game to master.

To keep the game interesting and fun to new players they need someone to play with (after all, that's what multiplayer is all about ) and the possibility to win the game, or, in other words, they need opponents of the same level. Experienced players will beat new players regardless of bunny being on or off. And they might get frustrated because they can't get RA or RL, or because they can't hit other players, or someone is getting quad every time. I don't believe bunny scares new player more than every other aspect of the game. But after being beaten over and over again in matches they have no chance to win, they will leave to never return. So newbies only servers are good, and so are rookie tournaments. Small rookie tournaments could happen every month, or even every week, just gather players in an irc channel or something, close some servers and let them fight. Newbies need to play against newbies, but it's difficult to find a opponent with same skills just joining random servers. Having a certain day and time when they can surely find someone to play with could help to keep the game fun. QL matching skills system is nice but I don't know if it can be adapted to QW since there are no accounts in QW (probably other technical aspects have to be considered also).

Btw, when did this thread degenerated into "How can we keep QW alive and increase numbers"?

I think Clan Arena is the only one mod anybody should put effort in to promote and try attract newbies with it. Maybe Rocket Arena also. CA is easy to get in to, a bit CS-ish, you start with loadout, everyone have the same items, there are rounds, no pickups, one team must kill all members of another, then point is awarded, end of round, next. Shooters can't get much simpler than this (only thing i can think of is instagib clan arena, extremly boring, extremly stupid, and extremly popular within warsow newbies). And no changes to weapons and armor are required, everyone is equal.

TF is great mod, but i prefer later incarnations tbh. Team Fortress Classic was THE game for teamplay before UT and CS came, and is still played today. Enemy Territory(or WW2TF by nickname), was also much better than original, with refined gameplay elements (for example: you have to kill enemy and strip him out of clothes to get a disguise. You won't lost it if you kill someone with knife without being seen), and new added that are already classics - like train cart both teams have to get. TF2 makes classes so different, that "one man pwns all" won't happen, without teamplay you are nothing. TF with bunny is full of one man fastcaps, not fun imo. So i don't want to go back to it, when i can launch steam and play one of two valve TF games, or get ET for free if i want game with WW2 twist. And face it, QWTF is horrible thing to start experiencing Quake, with all binds and config kung-fu necessary to play it properly. Because of those reasons, i think days of original TF passed for good, and it highly unlikely it can crawl out of grave and be cool kid around the block again.

I'm one of the few new quake world players and this is why I think this game is not doing well at all at attracting new players:

1) I'm in the US. There is not a single active US server.

2) I try playing 4v4 TDM. They all start complaining and tell me to go play FFA in a 16 player crowded as fuck server (keep in mind both servers are 120+ ping). No I'd rather not just spam away at 100 players and get insta spawn killed by a quad carrier. How is this going to help me get better in any way? I've spent enough hours with bots that I know about every weapon in the game, most of the maps, and how I should generally play the game (and I have experience with CPM anyways)

3) The client is really shitty. The year is 2010 folks, the interface should be clean and easy to use. Instead for some reason my mouse is at like 0.001 sensitivity while I'm browsing the menu (on maximum menu sensitivity), when I connect to a server and try to download stuff it downloads at 5 kb/sec which is ridiculous, and so I have to go searching online for maps, when I configure stuff some of the graphics options are in a graphics tab, some are in a system tab, multiplayer server browser has no sorting ability and the server list consistently breaks by not showing certain servers that I know do exist. The one thing I'll praise is the F1 read more thing which gives good information for all the commands and stuff.

4) There needs to be a competitive config/preset, with the optimal settings apart from FOV and sensitivity for competitive players. Most people in this community are competitive anyways, the config could give default settings for graphics, enemy and team skins, common binds, if there are any scripts common scripts. For instance, I want to know what kind of weapon binds most people use, because the demos I've seen people use shotgun a lot, and yet it is bound by default on 1...and I doubt many people actually press 1 to get their shotgun

4) I don't know if you guys realized this already but if you want to bring quakeworld into the 21st century you really gotta start from scratch and redesign the whole thing. Nquake is fairly simple but even that still has its isseus. Having come from games such as quake live and TF2 the interface is so simple yet noobs still have problems with it.

If someone had the time to make a new quake that looks like something remotely related to a modern FPS game, the chances of new players coming are higher. As it is, it's OK, but I have to play with bots because there are no goddamn servers

Seems this thread has gone way off-topic. Anyway, really interesting input jaguare -- much appreciated. We can always make up all kinds of speculation, so it's nice to hear from a real "new player" as yourself for once.

Herb, Tonik and other guys.

Look ... I'm a hardcore NetQuaker. I don't like QW physics. But I worship at the shrine of A "Fuh" Nourai. I think FuhQuake was the most awesome client ever made (yeah, it lacks interpolation and independent physics, but it was super easy to use).

There is no way to say this without some of you being upset with me, but ezQuake's menu is way too complicated.

I was playing around with ezQuake today and all I did was enable DirectInput, which I swear by, and I had the worst CPU lag imaginable and then switched to Raw Input.

My own NetQuake client, ProQuake, I can type "m_directinput 1" and have DirectInput as smooth as you can imagine.

The ezQuake menu has way too many settings. Even that statement is doesn't really drive home how complex the ezQuake menus are.

A good menu system has maybe one small screen of settings that nobody is going to change. Nobody can deal with 5 screens of 20 settings of which can be expanded to 40 settings. It's way too much. Newbies cannot deal with that. It should be optimally configged out of the box with a screen of the 5 common settings that someone might want to change to get it nearly optimally configged.

All steam games got 40+ settings

But a menu like the nexuiz one, with option for advanced would be nice

Yes, exactly

I'm trying out the proquake client that you mentioned, cause I'm not a fan of ezquake at all

I think something that could be bundled with it is an autoexec.cfg with a list of all the major commands so someone can create a config by going setting by setting for 15 minutes or so.

whine.

1) fuhquake have interpolation, at least for models poses, perhaps, you means something different.
2) about DirectInput and EZQ and lag, probably ProQuake have 77 fps while ezquake have it uncapped? This may cause mouse lag indeed. There nothing special you can do in how you can handle DI, so I really doubt DI code significanly differ in EZQ and ProQuake.
3) EZQ menu are reach, that true. Hardly navigated with mouse, maybe not perfect layout.
4) EZQ menu have "advanced" toggle.
5) EZQ is same easy to use as fuhquake, yes EZQ have more commands/variables but noone force you use it so it basically same fuhquake with additional functional.
6) NQ physics are boring, like I recall the difference , most noticeable difference is no bunny hopping, at least in vanilla, well, you can't accelerate, just to state it, since I see opposite state from you almost in every your post I prefer fly like I bird in QW and not crawl like a turtle in NQ.

And yes, QW (and NQ) clients are shitty in this or that way even EZQ is most playable. I whould like to see QW on Q3 or Warsow or DarkPlaces(with more FPS) engine. :E

It's not our fault that QW never been popular in NA like in Europe and netQuake dominated there instead. There must be active community to setup servers, nobody will do charity work and maintain and pay for servers so you guys could play with better pings, look for other US players and take matters in your hands.


I know what are you talking about. Sadly, some people never learn, and will behave like these all the time.


Good point, often overlooked, because almost all people there use console commands or editing config in notepad to setup game.


QW is most customizable game i know. There is no such thing as "pro" settings. Everyone uses different. I use weapon binds so i don't have to switch and then fire, but many people actually push the button to switch. And they are kicking my ass.


Simply not enough human resources to pull off project like that. And remaking QW on different engine incompatible with present one won't work, community will be split between new and old QW, even if new QW could maintain faithfulness in every single aspect.

So we can legally use id textures in the GPL maps??

@jaguare: If you want to play Quake on US netquake servers and non US QW servers try DARKPLACES (http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/). It can play on both protocols, and on nexuiz. This way you can use 1 client with 1 config. Plus it supports q1, hl, q3 maps, md3, iqm, psk, mdl, md2 models. .wav and .ogg sounds, simple menu setup, extensive cvar descriptions. real-time shadows across the board. Pretty much tech4 quality.

bottom line, it's just a game. Is there really a reason to spend countless hours combing the carpet just to have people walk all over it?

> We are going to give free license to redistribute our art in
> user maps for non-commercial purposes.
>So we can legally use id textures in the GPL maps??

The GNU GPL requires that you allow for commercial distribution.
You cannot distribute GPLed maps that are combined with id's textures.

I've never understood why id chose a license that isn't compatible with their own :/

But, we can use id textures in maps we make. Create a GPL "client". Then the FREE-Quake media can be just an archive of FREE user-made media .pak's.
The only tihng that HAS to remain GPL is the ONLY....

The ONLY?

I've never understood why you don't understand that they still want to sell the game and at the same time allow some free content be created by the community.

I'm complaining about the GPL license for the maps, not the license for the textures.... Using GPL for the maps makes it possible to use them commercially, while their normal license they used for everything else, does not. As you put it, GPL doesn't sound like the logical choice, if they want to keep selling the game.

Operating under the assumption that some sort of successful NetQuake GPL replacement is successful -- which you guys are free to do whatever you please at will --- you won't miss the id1 textures at all:







The id Software textures just aren't that special.

No they are just original and nothing fancy.

I think you are delusional as a player of both NQ and QW. Neither will have a resurgence unless someone with major money does something. Both are super dead compared to their golden eras, the only community left with decent numbers is the EU QW community; which itself seems to be dying off at a faster rate. Since I've stopped playing Quake 1 regularly and played a lot of other games I realize now the gameplay is the major problem in attracting and keeping newbies. Too late to fix that. Maybe if Quake 1 coop was actually good newbies would have a mode to be attracted to but it isn't.

As someone who has taught people to bunny I think bunny is a major problem. Many people have a very hard time getting good at it and quit because they can't learn it easily. I brought 20 or so players to QW and probably half the people got seriously annoyed or quit because of learning to bunny. Some were even NQers so they had a lot of previous Quake 1 experience. Teaching people in person is OK but trying to do it online is terrible. Even Quake3/QuakeLive bunnying is hard to learn. I love bunnying and am good at it but honestly it sucks to learn. Ideally complex movement doesn't have to bet a pain to learn.

Rune Quake and most mods are shit, and I say that as someone who used tear up a servers in weird mods. I'm happy QW focuses on the elite stuff.


jaguare I think it's cool you are trying QW but honestly unless you are crazy hardcore don't waste your time. I say this as a fellow USA player who used to play QW a lot and played in EU a little. Maybe if you lived in EU, but in the USA it's too dead. The reason people complain is because they are used to everyone having years and years of TDM experience. People are ridiculously good at TDM now and they expect a high level of play. In the USA especially the guys will hop on a server and rape you repeatedly because they want to get their QW fix. I've brought a couple newbies within the last year or so just to show them QW and usually steek or someone is there and wants 2v2 then just rapes them like crazy then they all quit. Seen it happen like 5 times...

A resurgence has to be "earned". Earned = you must understand the issues, address them, fix them, forsee other issues and preemptively address them.

NetQuake is fun. Quakeworld is fun.

NetQuake's lag is no fun when someone has bad ping. Quakeworld's bunnyhop is complicated to explain to a new player. Connecting to a Quakeworld server and getting raped by Steek or some such player is no fun. In NetQuake the new players go play RuneQuake where the gameplay is unattractive to elite players.



Well, pg, with you being someone who has played Quakeworld in the US for countless years, it is nice to see you recognize what I think other people don't want to admit.


Delusional is an understatement. "Mad man" or insane would be a better description. Like Maxwell Zorin from View To A Kill. ; )

Joking aside, a difference of perspective is that since I do code a Quake engine I do have limited control and some ability to shape things so me thinking about things isn't idle thought and I can actually solve problems I don't like.

Before getting into engine coding, I sat on the sidelines frustrated seeing things I believed to be issues that I had no direct ability to "fix".

That being said, I think I've shared the thoughts I have on things adequately. I know others may not agree with them all, but I wanted to share them. I remember back a few years ago when Sassa spent time sharing with me his thoughts on Quakeworld and NetQuake, it was a good quality discussion and I listened intently.

Off to work on ideas from my perspective ...

You are both missing that every game with movement more complicated than "push button to run" have the same problem. Even something as simple as dodging in UT is extremly hard to taught to new players. They simply don't use it.

Crippling game with no-bunny servers won't do anything good, because these people will eventually have to learn movement - it's better if they do it sooner than later.

There is no good way out of it - you are either leaving game as it is, with steep learning curve, or you are remodeling it in to something different. First means most people won't stick to it, second means you'll lose big part of existing loyal community.

I compare bunnyhop in QW to micromanagement in Starcraft - either you'll learn it, or you are hopeless and won't make any progress. Sometimes you must put some effort in entertainment to fully enjoy it (sports works similar - for example you won't have much fun out of skateboarding unless you practice a lot and learn new things), so go look for another game if you are lazy. But, maybe some games are for people who are actually curious and wish to learn.

Even if there was no bunny hop, quakeworld would still be a challenging game. It makes no sense to dumb this game down for an audience that won't even play this game anyways.

The people who do end up playing this game tend to have experience in other games and the will/ability to learn bunny hopping.

I don't have answers, only questions.

As an American of Polish/Swedish decent, I'll just say if I am ever in Poland I'll look ya up and buy you a beer and we can play a few games of NQ and a few games of Quakeworld and see who wins.

Off to do my own thang ...

I'm a programmer and I have reviewed the EZQuake code and the monumental problem with getting it up to speed graphically and otherwise with modern games is that it's written in structural 'C'. If it was to be rewritten in C++ in an OOD (Object Oriented Design) then it would be very simple to introduce advanced features as seen in games today. I predict in the event of this ever happening that a Warsow type interface with a modular design would be introduced. Advanced in-game tools could also be easily extended from that interface for further customizability. Also, the floodgates of would open up and virtually any feature seen on the market today could be realized with relative ease. For instance, I know I could easily add doom 3's md5 support complete with shaders in under a week. This is truly why Quake as an evolving engine fails to such an incredible degree and why it will likely eventually meet it's demise, it just doesn't have the backbone architecture to support the ever evolving climate of the video game industry. Rewriting it in C++ in an OOD is it's only hope of survivability but the question is will anyone ever step up take on such a daunting task. Personally if I were the EZQuake team, I'd seriously think about stopping all bugfixing and feature support and think about putting 100% time and devotion to refactoring the C code into C++ and start by implementing as much OOD functionality into the engine as possible. Otherwise QW will not hold the test of time and in 2~5 years expect no one to be playing this game anymore.

qw has hold the test of time. when someone said it's about to die. _everyone_ has been at fault. i guess welcome to the club in 2-5 years then.

So who is it that want the game changed? You are talking about rewriting the whole engine, to what purpose? So it will be easier to modify the game if I read you correctly. But that is kind of a no brainer since hardly no one want it to be changed from what it is, or am I missing something big here?

I'd say that most of the current developers agree that this is basically what is needed in the long term. Especially the renderer would benefit from such rewrite.

The problem is not really that we don't know what to do, but the motivation and time to do things is lacking. It's a kind of spiral when you notice a small degradation in general QW activity, degradation in amount of leagues and so forth, you automatically lose your own motivation to add something. The smaller the motivation is, the lesser are chances that some major rewrite will be done.

Similar thing is also that we are all getting older, there's not so much free time left and there is no "new generation" to replace us. Most of the QW devs worked on QW engines during their school studies I think. I have talked to at least three different developers and offered them support for some greater rewrite they were each planning, however, those things always vanished into thin air. And I can't really blame anyone for not willing to do something entirely for free.

Activities to bring new players to QW will always indirectly result in higher QW development activity. Sadly such activities are not really happening nowadays. I think the current focus on one large European+English speaking scene is not good for bringing rookies into the game, these things should start at smaller, national level, but that is for completely different discussion of course. Oh well, I got carried away here a little

@ruskie ~ Oh it's true that up until now Quake/Quakeworld has been hugely successful in survivability because until say the last 2 years its architecture has stayed somewhat relevant and the underpinning of the game mechanics are quite good in that it's a fun ride to play QW. The mere fact that this game has been played by many from all walks of life for countless hours while increasing desire for engagement rather than decreasing is a testiment of this. Unfortunately we are now moving far beyond the parameters of its architecture and there will be a compounded ever increasing dwindling of interest in QW as a result of this. If you think long and hard about the implications of what I'm conveying here with judgement, critism and ridicule aside I think you too will see the relevence of what I'm saying.

@fog: I'm not proposing rewriting the engine rather refactoring it. Under normal circumstances refactoring isn't a big deal and happens all the time with existing engines in their development. Think about this, the difference between Q1 and Q2 is not really that huge in terms of functionality but the primary difference is in the code that drives it. Warsow, I believe, is based on Q2 which allows it to have a clean and flexible interface and introduce features that's very difficult to reproduce in Q1. The base code is already there in Q1 it just needs to be refactored in an OOD architecture that conforms to the design and principles of today's games. Then developers could easily implement any feature seen in todays games they wished. You do not know which you don't know. Some features may help drive interest in the game while others wouldn't but the mere fact that you could add features that you think "might" be successful would increase the chance of breeding interest. Also more developers would take the Engine for the simple fact that they know it's flexible enough for them to do some really amazing innovative things with it.

@JohnNy_cz: I applaud you and feel bad for you at the same time. I applaud you because I know you truly do want to see the game survive and have all the tools for the developers to make it all it can be. I feel bad for you because I think you also know intimately the limitations that I am touching upon here and it frustrates you to no end that no one will do anything about it. Perhaps someone will and we can enjoy another decade of QW

>to the design and principles of today's games
Sorry, but what is that? How do those priciples differ from quake ones?
And what features do you lack in ezQuake?

To raise new wave of QW you need many $s and a lot of advertising to attract users.

pwetty gwaffix might attract users, but it won't retain them.
Focusing on the first and forgetting the second is a futile exercise in failure.

As a project that's written in people's spare time, quake will never match todays games, if only because of the time and effort required to do so. By the time you've caught up to modern games, got artists to make textures to support your features, got maps that actually use said features, etc, the games of 'today' have marched on and are now raytraced or whatever. The majority of my own Quake-hacking time in the past two years has been spent trying to rewrite my own renderer. It still achieves half the framerate of Quake3 (on a q3 map), but is still buggy thanks to these changes, so its still kinda pointless.

The distinction between C and C++ is a pointless one. Correct code design trumps choice of language every single time. If you can shoot yourself in the foot with C, you're going to do it with C++ too - and C++ is typically much worse for spagetti, as well as less portable.