If sticking with 5 maps, I think CMT3 and CMT1b is too alike to be a successful pair. Not to mention that both of those maps have alot of similarities with an already really popular 4on4 map, DM3. I think this is something to think about as well, when picking two additional maps to tb3.

Regardless of things like quality, or fun, or other subjective things, you cannot say cmt1b and cmt3 are "too alike" just because they have the same powerups. They don't play even vaguely similarly.

The two closest maps are almost certainly dm3 and cmt3, and even they are not similar enough to put off the majority of people in this thread who seem to be suggesting it more often than any other map.

Oh, as to the question posed by 1tsinen, 2 extra maps is plenty for me.

I can say whatever I want, tbh. I think they're too alike. I think they play very similarly as well. And I think cmt1b is crap compared to cmt3. Also, I'm sure many agrees with me. Woot, more personal opinions? Guess I'll be slaughtered by the so called police officers of objectiveness.

edit: plus, we must rescue BPS from the sc2 / poker crap. Leave cmt1b out of EQL12 !

I'm not even gonna reply on that


Yes box, something like that. I have a feeling of disgust when on cmt1b. A total lack of interest in learning such a badly designed map (from an architectural perspective). It's totally emotional, so I can't or won't go any further than to just say I hate it, and will never play it again.


now we're getting somewhere!

btw; I wanna change my vote to TB3 only, but I'm fearing there's just a minority of us left, so I'm not seriously suggesting it any longer...

theres no arguments against this so just say tb3 or you leave and we will appease you and we can go on with our lives

nah, I can play most maps, so tb3+2 others are ok, just not cmt1 :rolleyes:

Whether two maps play alike is not really matter of an opinion. Clearly you can have an opinion that cmt3 and cmt1b play similarly, but it is very obvious that this opinion is wrong.

So they are alike, and play similarly, and yet one is crap compared to the other one? Hmmm.....

Thats right.

tb3+cmt3+ any of schloss/e2m2/grim/cmt1b

CMT3 has no similarities with any of the TB3. It doesn't work for TDM at all. CMT1B may have similarities with the best TDM map out there, so it's not a surprise it plays better for TDM.

As to DM2 I guess you can try to reason why any map is good or bad but in the end the important games in DM2 are enjoyable to play and that's what matters. Playing CMT3 I just can't wait for it to end.

I agree with the finnish blaze

That sums up pretty well what I feel about cmt3, plus that it's easy to give objective reasons too why it's total crap but I can't be arsed to. I guess people like it because it is FFA and it's hard to get raped too much in it.

We need 2 div0 designed kenya maps

bps + tiddles in cooperation mode for a couple of new maps perhaps?!

EDIT: Or how about try to get a mapper and let all div1 clans be in a forum discussion of how to make it? (Yet let 1-2 people be the real ones to decide, but still take advice from the rest)

That won’t necessarily ‘solve’ things because:
-Not all div1 players want new maps so they will have little interest in contributing and will still not accept the new map
-Mapping by committee will be tough to coordinate remotely and could see mappers getting frustrated at conflicting requirements, having to wait around for feedback etc
-Div1 players won’t necessarily be any better at map design (think of your favourite maps, whether it be tb3, cmt or whatever. How many of those were designed by div1 players?). Why restrict to div1 only?
-It’s kinda been done before…. Cmt1b, cmt4, cmt5b etc are all tweaked versions of prototype maps based on feedback from div1 players




So if by your own admission people like cmt3, and being enjoyable to play is what matters, then doesn't it follow that cmt3 is a valid map? I don't like dm2 (in relative terms of course, it's QW 4on4, which i'd never truly hate on any map) but I can accept that other people do and hence accept that it will remain in the map pool.

Im really up for teaming up with good mappers. For bay12 i collaborated with plupp in a nice workflow where he 'did it' and I kinda followed every change he made and made 2d-sketches with ideas that I showed him. I dont know if its time to continue the paused work with bay12, or if that should be considered a lesson in mapping (as atleast Im kinda new to it) and now start out with a brand new idea/concept. Im looking forward to this fall with more mapping in any constellation!

Another idea when it comes to developing "new" maps would be to take already known - unplayed - custom maps that may have a superb layout but suffers too much from sucky item placement, throw out all of the items and start from scratch in that sense.

But that was FFA maps tweaked for 4on4, it was a very good effort by Link (I miss him). But designing a map from scratch with ideas on how the gameplay should be, could end up being a lot more successful.

You are right tho, div1 players might not be better at map design - But they do know more about the 4on4 gameplay than most.

I don't know, maybe good map design is more about luck than planning, the id guys didn't know about qw 4on4 when they made the tb3 maps.

Well there is a difference in liking a map because it is enjoyable to play and liking it just because the end result is less harsh. We chose sometimes cmt1b to win big, but I actually enjoy playing dm3 more. But yeah, it's not like I'm going to fight against it more than this because it seems to be futile. I guess I just have to keep suffering those 20 minutes trough it.

You have to remember that in leagues people make decisions first and foremost based on competition. In mixeds people play what they actually like playing. (dm3)

I think mappers concentrate too much on making maps that look cool or have some innovative tricks etc. Imo 4on4 works best in simple streamlined maps with good layout of items. Key items should be defendable and not just thrown around the map on the floor on random places.

And that is just why I think it should be div1 players to decide. If a map with good 4on4 gameplay is going to be made, I'm pretty certain good knowledge of 4on4 gameplay is needed.

Perfect example:

CMT1b was a tweaked version of CMT1, a map designed for 4on4
CMT4 was a tweaked version of androm9, a map designed for 5on5 (which was the preferred TP mode in those days in the UK)
CMT5b was a tweaked version of CMT5, a map designed for 4on4


I'm inclined to agree (possibly), but dm2 isn't like that at all. It has loads of tricks (floating platforms, lava dumps, squish boxes, shootable button, button-enabled platforms/bars, teleporters) - basically the whole map is one big gimmick. Even if by innovative tricks you mean kinda fancy moves done by players it is chock full of them - quad hop, rocket jumps, blocking (secret/ra-mega jump). It's probably the least streamlined 4on4 map I can think of that is actually played (ignoring the very beginning of e1m2 before the one-time triggers have been hit)

Same here, I've played in clans that picked cmt1b even though I prefer dm3. It's just common sense that in a competitive game you pick the map where you believe the score will be the most favourable, right?
In fact I seem to remember one time against against tVS we threw dm3 instead of cmt4 for the decider because we felt we had more chances there - it backfired!

As for mixed games being mostly on dm3, the reasons for that are (IMO):
-dm3 is the best map
-dm3 is the kind of map where even when losing people still feel like they can do stuff in a mix. Whereas dm2 games that have unbalanced teams leading to scores like 150-30 after 10 mins are likely to get people whining/breaking/dropping
-it is played so much that it almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. People know the map well and you never have much problem finding players to play dm3 mix. Other maps tend to cause more division amongst players making it harder to get 8 players ready when players are scarce (middle of night etc).

tb1 league would suit me fine

i would ideally pick tb3 of course but if i had to extend to a 5 map pool it would be. cmt4, prefer a9 but what can you do. e3m2 as my second choice. i hate that cmt3 map with a passion and like blaze feel its an ffa map and has that q3 feel to it with the big open spaces. cmt1b never really played it but to me its too complex with far too many obstacles to flow like a good 4on4 map. dm2 may have a few traps but it doesnt stop the flow of the game. it also rewards a defensive style at times. what does this new map offer in the sense of gameplay? its like q3 imo with big open spaces, high ceilings and acceleration between rooms. cpma players taking over qw? ;/

This.

True. Keep trick maps separate from tdm.

Yeah that's true. I guess the map is so small that the action doesn't slow down despite all the trickery. One difference is though that many of the moves in dm2 are just coincidences discovered by players. I feel that in modern maps the mapper has designed the tricks and to me that just feels wrong somehow. But sure, it's not a perfect map either. Especially not having lg is super lame.

Totally agree. Lets try cmt4, it is an unique map. Whats good in tb3? The gameplay is totally different on each map. cmt1b proved its worthless in the last kenya eql.