*bump*

I don't really care for these arguments.

What I do care about is getting the map list out soon. The positives of picking the maps now are big, negatives are quite small indeed. Chances of something dramatic happening between now and the next EQL season to affect the map choices are pretty slim. So why not?

I agree. The sooner we know what maps are coming up for next season, the sooner we can start to prac them and the quality of the matches will be higher. It's just... How to decide it? It always seems to be some drama followed by the decision, even when they're based on polls.

My suggestion:

Take a pool of maps, and let each team that participated in EQL13 give two votes to two different maps from that pool. Teams kicked for inactivity shouldn't get to vote ofc. The pool could include any map, really, but it might be a good idea to limit it somewhat.


My suggestion to map voting pool: cmt1b, cmt3, cmt4, e1m3, e2m1, e2m2, e3m7. Also Zakas "new" map, Naughty Brickworks has awesome textures and what appears to be a good layout. It's also designed with 4on4 in mind, but I don't think anyone has actually tested it? To me, this maps looks really promising at least.

We played some rounds on Naughty and it seemed really really promising 4on4 map. Some really nice tactical features and interesting layout.

If it has to be 5 maps then I vote for ExMx (e2m2,e3m6,e3m7..) maps and some other Kenyas mentioned here instead of Cmt maps. Also, I liked Dedi's idea aswell.

The only seasons it has been somewhat acceptable has been when all signed up clans (everyone or division based) actually had one vote each. The last couple of seasons has been a total joke, which was topped when some qw.nu poll was being used for the decision. I still can't understand how idiotic that was, for reasons already pointed out in earlier threads.

My suggestion would be to have some sort of poll/study asap (ideally before this season is over) of current clans that will play next season also, regarding map pool. It would give a decent hint on what most people prefers.

Cmt1b and Enraged !! Or finally make bay12 competition-able?

If we have to have non-TB3 maps, then let's go completely crazy and have new maps. The CMT maps are well known and to be honest, just not good enough compared to TB3. It would be good to have everyone completely "noobish" on the maps for a while

"Naughty" looks like fun and then we could go with something that's semi-tried in ladders like schloss or grim?

Also has anyone tried rwild in 4on4? It's quite DM2-esque in 1on1/2on2 so I guess it could be interesting in 4on4?

For someone who doesn't want to play other than TB3 in pracs, it would be logical to oppose this.

Last I checked EQL rules are not binding in prac games. I'm relative certain there might still be some clans around that would be willing to play dm3.

.

Pracs aren't going to include more rounds just because you extend the map pool, so there would be less TB3 played. Dm3 is safe, but e1m2 might drop significantly. Having to play kenya is the bigger issue for the "kenya hater" anyway.

Dm3 Dm2 E1m2 Cmt3 Grim

Personally while I wouldn't be against the prospect of new maps, I don't think CMT should be discarded in favour of them. From a community perspective, I can't see ANY maps ever being considered 'good enough' to usurp tb3 as the maps of choice, there is just too much inertia and accumulated knowledge of tb3 to make any map be considered their equal by the majority. I once heard ParadokS say "If you're gonna pick kenya, at least pick normal kenya" after seeing us choose something a little off the wall in the summer ladder (even then it was nothing new, Schloss I think) - the implication is that at least cmt1b/3/4 are getting begrudingly accepted simply because teams know them to a moderate standard albeit way off tb3 levels.

As an aside I can tell you that based on games I've played with boefje about 6 years ago and with tks last year, IMHO schloss isn't 'good enough' [:p] compared to tb3, the layout and general concepts are fine but it just feels too cramped, kinda like if it was scaled up 25% it would be a better map. It certainly doesn't feel superior to CMT in any way.

Grim is a harder one to call, it's kinda weird in that I found it not particularly enjoyable to play yet I couldn't pick any major faults in it.

Rwild I haven't tried in 4on4 but my gut feeling (which isn't always right when it comes ot assessing maps on looks not playtime) is that RA would be too strong a position since there is 65h nearby, ammo (gl+rox), a spawn point to mop up frags (without getting too flooded) and has a strong position overlooking one of the major routes. Nobody coming from lavawalk is going to sneak past without rjing and you have a shot down when they go for the lift. Or maybe people would camp the stairs and ambush people using that route through sng, dunno... either way I'd reserve judgement until it is tested but I have doubts. Alternatively maybe it's just too small and would be a cess-fest (mentally I'm thinking that the other chokepoint at GA would be defensible, but if you are getting rushed, GA and 30h isn't gonna last long).

Anyway Medar saved me the trouble on bumping this one, since although EQL14 is (presumably) 5 months away, for many players it will be the next official 4on4 tournament they play.
I think there is much to be said for announcing the map pool early, if nothing else because it means clans know what they are signing up for (compared to the voting system whereby you signup to a tourney with unknown map pool).

You won't have to play those other maps in pracs if you don't want to. And in the case you won't play them, there is still the same amount of time to use for TB3 for you.

Only if you find opponents and have teammates that will play just TB3. Both of which there will be less.

We normally play 2-3 maps per prac. If there were 5 accepted maps it means we would spend less time on each map --> even less routine on each map
Spending much time on qw is sadly something most of us did in the past.

Next EQL: dm3, e1m2 and Naughty.

Why we should drop dm2? It's my personal favorite but in my eyes it doesn't really fit into competitive 4on4, too much luck involved.
Why to have a totally new map? Are div0 clans good on QW or just on TB3? I thought EQL was about QW not about TB3. Evolve or die.

Nothing wrong with dm2, or dm3 or e1m2. if anything it's even harder to comeback from dm3 lockdown.
And saying dm2 has too much luck involved is also just ridiculous. There is luck involved on all maps, but when you start to think you are the most unlucky player around, maybe you should rethink your skills instead.

I think it is not enough with only ONE 4on4 tournament around, we need some variety and options. I would like a tb3 only tour and a 5 map tour. Why not mix and match? and then have more strict schedules, so donkey teams can't delay forever because they think they might have a better chance later in the season. Should make for a more consistent and fun competition throughout the whole season

You want to exclude dm2? Good luck :E
Imho e1m2 is much worse still. Be if you want to keep it in, so be it, fine by me.
And I concur with the above statement - we need more action (one EQL pro isn NOT enough).
Remember The Kurwaliga (ClanWarz - all tb3 maps must be played within one encounter) ?

The discussion of removing any of the TB3 maps is just retarded, it's never going to happen, not to mention the fact that they are perfect, all 3 maps are completely different and thus offer something to a wide array of players.

More tournaments would be great, however seems like we don't really have enough admins/active admins for the current tournament as they are always looking for more help, which is understandable. But this means we would need some new blood to take it upon himself to create a new tournament. I doubt that will happen.

Back ontopic, yes it would be nice if the 2 extra maps that will be added for eql 14 would be decided as soon as possible.
Two votes per clan would suffice.


ps. In eql12 cmt4 was played 45 times while cmt1b was only played 29 times (12 of those plays was by tks alone...) JUST SAYING!

so if we pick cmt1b theres a special interest but the others picking cmt4 has no special interest, good to know we're so special!

I believe next season has to include more than 3 maps, simply because this one didn't and for some players a lot of fun is taken away. Even if there was a vote and tb3 had a 60:40 majority over tb3+others, it wouldn't make much sense because the consequences are not the same for both sides - as only one side must really relinquish what they wanted. And even 40% is enough imo to justify the comprehension of custom/episode maps in a season.

If I were the oberadmin and had to decide that semi-democratically/timely, I would ask each team that competed in EQL 13 (except for the ones that were kicked out) during the next 2-3 weeks which maps they would like to have included in the map pool for next season. Maybe ask each team for 3 maps from a large pool (episode maps, famous custom maps, "new candidates with potential) and list the results on the EQL website. It should be transparent who voted for which map, list the top5 maps with most votes. Like this:

schloss 12 votes
naughty 10 votes
e2m2 8 votes
e3m1 5 votes
e1m3 4 votes

Then, when season14 begins, only the votes are counted by teams that actually field a team for next season to determine which maps to include (for example if you wanted to include 2 additional maps to the pool, the top2 make it into the pool which got the most votes by teams which signed up). This would favour consistent behaviour among the teams as well. Obviously, only maps can make it to the top2 (or how many you want to have) which were named "top5" before", so there's a "little" surprise factor, because the ranking may change a bit, but at least you're sure about those 5 and have all summer to prac and learn to love or hate the map(s).

If there really existed an equilibrium between those who want tb3 only and those who want more, what's the problem with having 2 different divisions (or maybe 4 to also consider the skill factor)?
Div1 tb3
Div2 tb3
Div K1 (Kenya 1, obviously)
Div K2
Actually, I'd prefer that, because tb3 only players don't need to play anything else and wouldn't moan and whine all the time, whereas the others could play even more maps as the map pool could be made even bigger

The problem with splitting into TB3 and Kenya is that potentially you end up with a two-tier system whereby Kenya league is devalued and not considered important. This in itself isn't necessarily a problem (survival of the fittest and all that), but it becomes a problem when you consider how this will influence pracs etc. NQR-CMT tourneys were never taken that seriously I don't think.

EQL14 as we know will have at least a 5 map pool, that has already been announced in previous years. So the above approach, if considered, should only really be for EQL15 - and might help keep the momentum going on kenya maps.

Andy does make a good point about tb3-lovers having less to lose, in that tb3 maps are always included regardless of whether kenya is in. It is not as though people are suggesting there should be a season of kenya only. EQL12 stats would probably make interesting reading in terms of looking at how much kenya was 'forced upon' the poor players. In most cases it was probably only around 3 or 4 times per map compared to much more tb3.

IF a map voting system is used for EQL14, it is imperative that an alternative vote type system is used, not 'first past the post' system - we musn't repeat the mistakes of previous years

If people wanted kenya so strongly, then they would already have formed kenya clans and already started praccing against other kenya clans even if the leagues didn't include the particular maps they were practicing. Maps are simply not important enough - gameplay is.

You are not right.
I was in couple clans who love kenya, but didn't play it because there are no any league with these maps. Team have only constant amount of time for prac and want to spend it in most efficient way. Also, it is very hard to find an opponent to play any kenya map.
And every time when eql include 2 custom maps in map pool, you see an opposite situation. A lot of teams prac these maps.
Personally, I played more cmt1b and cmt3 pracs than dm2/e1m2 when these maps were in map pool.

There are a lot of really good 4on4 maps.
schloss, grim, e2m2, cmt3, cmt1b, ukpak2 .
People just need to try it.
And leagues can help with it.

Announce map pool few months in advance and players will prac it a little bit.
Keep map pool same for few seasons and everyone will be familiar with these maps.

Check numbers from last eql ladder:
1. dm2 17
2. e1m2 16
3. dm3 10
4. cmt1b 8
5. schloss 6
6. e2m2 3
7. grim 3
8. cmt3 3

cmt1b was almost as popular as dm3. (but tournament was not so popular)

Last time when cmt3 was in map pool, it was played 39 times and e1m2 50 times.
http://eql.quakeworld.nu/eql10/mapstats

I remember days when it was only 3 maps in 1on1 and 2on2 map pools.
After that few leagues forced to play 5 maps and now we have tb5 in both categories.
Aerowalk offers great speed for duelers and ztndm3 offers very unusual teamplay for 2on2s.

You can check stats.qw.nu for duels:
dm4 55427
aerowalk 36047
dm6 31919
ztndm3 20983
dm2 15446

@Ake: as mentioned, leagues will influence matters. I understand the principle of what you are saying but most clans live for competition and that is what they practice for.
I could turn your argument on its head. Why, typically before/during seasons when CMT is in the map pool, do teams that prefer tb3 sometimes play practice maps on kenya, shouldn't they be just playing tb3 only? The reason is because they practice maps that are in the EQL map pool. It makes sense, that is why clans like TVS were at the top for so long, because they put in the time to become the best or at least highly competitive across the entire map pool.

EQL13 is tb3 only so on the very very rare chances we get to prac, we play tb3 (not only because it makes sense to practice maps in the league, but also because other clans feel the same). But in fact we did have an internal discussion with some players before/during EQLro where we said we were still happy to prac some kenya because it is enjoyable in itself, it is just that we haven't had enough opportunity to follow that through whilst also maintaining any kind of tb3 routine.

Moving to 5 maps for 1on1 was fantastic but it was a shame that it took so long, I mean as recently as 2003 it was still tb3 that was mostly accepted with others being shunned by the 'pro scene' - and ztndm3/aerowalk were both already over 5 years old then. And I've always said that it is MUCH harder to promote new maps in 4on4 compared to 1on1 because you need 8 people to try a new map rather than just 2. More than that in fact when it comes to clans.... if as a player like like to duel on kenyafest2k11.bsp, it is no problem, I can search all I want for an opponent to play me there. But to play a clan game there, first of all I need enough of my clanmates to be keen on the idea even before it comes to finding an opponent. And often when clans get 4 players wanting to play things will kick off with the usual tb3 etc.

Furthermore I'd imagine that it is harder to get the dynamic right on 4on4 maps. I don't envy mappers trying to map for 4on4 because I wouldn't know where to start trying to create something even before seeing if it works in practice. Whereas for 1on1/2on2, there must be dozens of good enough maps, we have 'tb5' but there would be much more scope for expansion if desired.

B1aze: Using raw play-number statistics to determine map quality is a dangerous road to walk along. People tend to fall back on the comfortable, the familiar or the simple. It's why povdmm4 gets played more than anything else, and the effect is even greater when you have 8 people to consider instead of just 2.


Ake Vader: If maps didn't matter then we wouldn't have this same argument every year with 500-post threads taking up permanent residence in the forum activity box on the front page. Or, better still, we'd just have a 5-map pool since that is objectively superior for a tournament that features best-of-5 games.

I also find it odd how you, and others, talk about "kenya" as if it's a different game and it needs to be segregated. The idea that you would need to set up entirely new clans and leagues to play the same game in the same mode on the same continent is further indicative of the irrational separation between original id maps and custom. Do you know the real difference between id maps and customs? Some of the custom maps were made with some actual knowledge of how to play quakeworld (not all of them with very good knowledge, but I digress), whereas all 37 id maps were made in blind ignorance in the fledgling years of 3d map design with no thoughts of the concept of 4on4, or the relative strength of weapons/armours, or bunny hopping, or the true potential of rocket jumping, and 3 of them turned out alright due to sheer luck coupled with staggering amounts of subsequent playtime.

How many custom maps made for 4on4 exist now? That number is a lot higher than 37, and I could easily find 3 maps you've never heard of that would give an adequate playing experience at least on par with dm2 or e1m2. The issue here is not the quality of the existing maps themselves, of course they'll never reach the level of knowledge required to achieve games of the perceived required quality because no one will ever commit to a stable pool, forever ensuring no one takes any of the maps seriously.

Which brings us to the serious legitimate problem with new maps: Games on them are not as high-quality because they are not know as well as the older, established maps. This means that the EQL map pool situation is almost comical in its current state.

"These maps are shit because no one knows them"
"Well, practice them then"
"No, they're shit"

The current method of dealing with the pool does absolutely nothing to address this problem, and satisfies no one, as evidenced by the constant roiling drama following the announcement of every map pool. The solution, at least to my simple mind, is clear. If you're going to have a pool in a scene so utterly obsessed with stability and consistency, then make a stable 5-map pool instead of rolling the dice every 12 months and pleasing nobody.

Pick the two highest-quality maps and stick to them. I can practically guarantee less trouble simply by virtue of having the pool be a fixed thing, even if you choose some horseshit like midcit (but please don't do that :E).

I was actually joking here and considered that an option if it were really ~50:50 between Kenya-lovers and tb3-only players, which it's not