Sounds very nice, thx alot Muff1n!
Might very well like that for next season if there aint a second comming of dead -oo- members this season wich i doubt.. Scheduling would be a must for me as i feel pretty done idling.

And i hope someone with skill and energy make this random teamthing happening aswell, i could try do gfx if needed and if someone else makes the rest. Would be so sad if theres only one for the highdivs, still i really hope they get what they want aswell, the more action overall the better in the long run even for div3-

Talking about charity and birthrights, boy you got a HUGE head some times paradoks.. Your not every teams wettest dream.

Still i can really understand how u guys want more competetive games that aint fucked up by 1 player. But you are the guys with experience and knowledge and possibility to teach fast, dont forget that and step up.
So try signing up if theres a broader tournament aswell. I think it would be really good for qw if you did.

i think you can get into one of the teams and start to play straight away right now if that is ok with the eql admins.

and if you want to

We have always been putting the most effort on the "noobs" and "new" players for like 8 years now. What did it bring us? Exactly a almost death scene with a low skilled division 2 and no teams left in div1. But Oh boy if all the noobs are having fun then we can all be happy...

We are working on this draft setup, and we will EXCLUDE div3 players AND low div2 players. The purpose is to bring back the competitive games and clans and increase the skill level. *fuck* charity..

No hard feelings

Im glad for you! And its a good thing for qw.

Im just hoping someone with the time and skills for it starts something alike for the whole community.

You wouldent be forced to join it.
And seriously, if you put 8years of effort into the "noobs", i hope you would alteast be a bit happy if we had some more fun. Otherwise its really sad.

gg quakeworld

+1 murdoc

Gain individual skill -> Join a clan -> Learn teamplay. No clan asking you? Gain more skill -> Join a clan -> Learn teamplay.

If Rikoll could do it so can you. And if you can't, then no amount of help will change that.

You're welcome.

hehe thx for the pointer, but have you read this whole thread cara?

And if no amount of help will change that, what the hell are you doing with div2? (dont need a reply here)

You guys aint getting the point.

div2 contains mostly players that can play just fine. You don't need to be div0 to play 4on4, you just shouldn't be so terrible you don't know your head from your ass, or think that it's ok to use a trackpad on your laptop for gaming QW.

Besides, it's not mandatory for you to play 4on4 to enjoy QW. 4on4 is not the end all of QW. True that most other mods have died out, but you can still enjoy 1on1, 2on2 FFA, coop.

I don't know any decent QW player that started out playing 4on4. We ALL came from other modes like 1on1/FFA/arena first to learn basic skills.

But I can understand the newbies joining today, they see the streams with commentary from 4on4 games and think "that looks cool, i wanna play", just like they do when they join some battlefield/call of duty game, where it's "4on4" right off the bat. You join some server and put on a team and you just play. It doesn't work quite like that in QW.

But i do like 4on4 so i hope we can get some more games going. Why are you against this? I just cant get it.

IT IS VERY GOOD THAT YOU HAVE GOT THIS GOING NOW LIKE YOU DO!!!! OOOOKKKKK? mayby you understand this better

I JUST HOPE WE CAN GET SOMETHING LIKE THIS FOR THE LOWER DIV2-3!!!!! OOOOOKKKKK

no need to be assholes

Havent I mentioned that if div3 ppl fail to get into this "elite" draft league, there MUST BE a similar event for them too?
Oh yes, I have. Thank you.

Then just arrange it!

This thread makes me to want quit QW.

Whats the point in creating a same sort of league/draft for low div2/div3 people ??? Who will be captains who will teach/learn the others players if they don't know how to play properly them selves.

There is no point in doing that. They should learn basic teamplay and have basic skill to compete in a normal div2 game then you might consider letting them join.

Then don't read this thread PEKTOPAHKY

Div3 players aren't stupid or uninformed. If you think so, you should pay a little more attention what's actually going on. Most of us don't need a "teacher" to know what is going wrong with our game, we know very well but are either not willing or motivated to "change". Many of us have played the game for 10+ years. I had wanted to write a posting in this thread for quite a few days but always stopped because I was thinking "come on, they're not too bad", but the sheer arrogance coming out of a few players' mouth is unacceptable.

QW is dying from the bottom, not from the top. If you fail to see that, you're blind. There have never been more than 4-5 teams at the very top. Tell me a time at which more than 5 teams have been strong enough to play each other at a comparable level. You can't. And if you do, it's speculation, because that never happened and transparency wasn't that high back then that teams regularly played each other to actually compare. You're trying to "improve" something that isn't broken, trying to bring players from div2 to div1 standards is doable, but it's not in the hand of some random draft team tournament. The difference is dedication, motivation and raw skill. Bring that back and you'll revive QW. An attempt to improve a few players to form some new clans, who act as new victims for established div1 teams is an idea so stupid that would never could emerge from a div3 player's brain.

I'm not saying the idea of a draft league can't work, isn't fun or shouldn't be done. It should! But if the goal is to "increase the general level of play in order to make div1 more interesting", that's probably the most unrealistic idea i've ever read

So you want to put those "not willing" / "not motivated" players into this draft setup and let them fuckup all the games because they simple don't care to do there best and get better.

No thanks.

You are right if you say there have always been only 4-5 teams in the top. But there where also 4-5 extra teams who could steal a map here and there and they didn't get raped 400-50.

I'm not part of the EU scene and hell I barely play QW anymore due to how dead NA is, but my take on this is you need to make choices. What do you really care about just having more elite teams or trying to get everyone involved and grow/stabilize the scene? The IDL did an elite attempt for a few seasons. We cut teams from 12 to 8. That doesn't sound like a lot but that's 50% down. We put in a franchise system where the captain could pick their first player before the draft based on whoever they could get to agree to play with their team. This led to two superstars being the foundation for our 3v3 teams. I don't know if the skill level was much higher but in theory it should have been. Just given how leagues work if you have 8 teams, you'll still have winners and losers just like with 12 teams. With a draft league however as long as captains pick good teams you'll see a lot more close games than typical clan based leagues even with a division system. IDL now does teams based on sign ups, so if we get enough for 12 teams we'll do 12.

To me the magic of a draft league is you can involve div3 guys in a fair competitive environment. I agree there should be some basic 4v4 skill required and I've played in 4v4 leagues in EU briefly. IDL is 3v3 and our teams are 4 players. The 4th player is sometimes a lot worse than the starting 3 players. However he is involved with practices, he's on the team so he sees all the discussions, and if someone can't show up he gets to play. Sometimes he also gets to play when it's his map, that he's actually good on, or if we just know we'll win even if he plays. A draft league won't turn most div3 guys into div1 but you'd be surprised how much it can help if the best mix with the worst. It's a lot different than a typical mix game on a server because you are with your team all season in a competitive environment.

A lot of it depends on who will play and what teams will be. If teams end up on average being div0/div1/div1/div2/div2/div3 the div2 and div3 guys won't get to play much but they'll still be involved with the team and do their best to try and help out. To me it really depends on the balance of teams and how big the league is. If teams end up on average being div0/div1/div2/div3/div3/div3 that'll be a challenge to see who can make the most of their div3 players. Or perhaps the league will be div0/div0/div1/div1/div2/div2 and be an "elite" draft league with fewer teams.

IDL tends to try and get as many people involved as possible now as long as we know they'll be active and serious about it. Most really shit players will not be active and will drop out. We learned however if you exclude people based on skill level it just kills off newbies and worse players trying to get better because they know they can't be involved. My suggestion would be this try and make the league big enough to include at least a decent amount of div2/div3 players but small enough so the core 4 players of the team are at a respectable skill level that way you get the best of both worlds; high skill teams and involvement with div2/div3 guys who will learn from the best.

Its not like this is the only "league" out there people can still enjoy there div3 game in eql. And please go ahead and make a draft league for whole community, I dont have a problem with that

But there will also be a PRO only draft, thats it

"But there where also 4-5 extra teams who could steal a map here and there and they didn't get raped 400-50."

Its just too bad all these players didnt want to get beaten by div0 anymore and decided to join various div2 teams...

No, I didn't say that. I said the whole idea of improving a few players in order to make div1 more interesting is stupid.

Again, I'm not saying the general concept of a draft league is a bad idea, it could possibly be an enjoyable addition, no doubt about that. I do, however, feel that the intention behind it, is unrealistic. It seems as if some players think that at the moment we have 3 divisions in EQL, div1 being very thin and by running such a competition, some new strong clans will emerge to close a gap and next season we'll have 2 huge divisions with like 10 strong div1 teams and the rest for div2.

Uhm, you basically just said that those players in div3 don't care. They don't care about competing or winning, they don't care about improving - but ofc. if they WANTED to they could all be div0 (lol).

Now on those merits explain why they should be included in a draft league which sole purpose is to promote competition and higher quality games.

We, the players who want to compete at a higher level, are ONLY trying to create a platform on which we can do so. We just want to have fun in the game we love. And if some lesser experienced players can pick something up from the experienced ones that's just a bonus.

What is also a bonus is that you will have alot of great games to watch! Yes, that's right. All these hot games are to take place on servers that support QTV.

Again I'm not part of the EU QW scene I'm a total outsider looking in. I'm just giving my opinions because I'd hate to see the EU scene die like the NA scene did. If div3 players don't care, I agree, fuck them, don't let them in the draft. If they do care but just are inexperienced and therefore suck, they should be given a chance to get better. Maybe two draft leagues, I don't know. Deciding who fits into that category is obviously hard. I don't know the skill levels of the various QHLan draft players but a couple of them were far from div1 and still managed to make some very important plays. Just be careful being elitist and excluding people or else one day you'll realize there's no one left to play QW with, let alone people at your skill level. That's one of the big reasons the scene died here, the Dojo effort tried to help but by then it was too little and too late.


I disagree a draft league making for higher quality games. SR vs fOm is going to be the highest skilled 4v4 match right now. Any draft league will dilute talent across more teams, but that will result in more even and hard fought matches by many more teams. I'd say it's competition, fair games, and involving more players into such a competitive environment is what the draft league will achieve. I looked over quite a few of the QHLan draft matches and there were a couple blow outs that I saw but I was also surprised at how many close matches there were. I think it proves a draft league can work great in QW. I think any draft league would be better than the current reality of div1 being so lopsided even if limited to elite players. I'd argue it would be a much bigger challenge, takes much more QW skills and personal character to win a draft league made up of various skilled players than winning div1 where the most important part is getting yourself onto one of the few stacked teams.

Noone is stopping anyone from making their own clan, participating in eql, getting put in appropriate division. That is if you insist on playing 4on4 AND you suck.

But again, from my point of view, 4on4 is the Cadillac of quake, for others it's 1on1. But why can't we start enjoying other parts of quake again as well? I said before, it's not the end all of QW with 4on4. If bad players can't play in a "pro orientated draft" so what, they can still watch the games, follow the streams and the excitment.. watch a lot of good games, instead of the VERY limited amount of EQL div1 games we have today.

What's so wrong about that.

When they make a name for themselfs they will get the chance in the draft - is how I see it playing out. But let's not get ahead of ourselfs - there is not even an official proposal yet on how the system should work - let alone a first team made or game played. Let's see what happens.

The way i understood the draft league was that it should be made to save the scene from not dying, and not only making it a elite pro styled event for the best of the best with no playtime for the lower skilled players. The way you are headed with this is not a good move imo.
are we really going to dissect the scene and say u are too bad to play and youre good enough to be benched and you are good enough to play ? i mean ... c'mon
How will saving the qw scene work when you want to exclude players? everything just falls apart and nothing makes sense in this thread.. seriously.

what i want to know is: is this draft league meant to save the qw scene? or is it going to be made into a pro draft so div1 will have more teams to play with in the end ?

I'm totally with pg here. No point to build a flashy minaret if the foundation of your structure is poor. Well, it is whoever starts the tournament decision anyway, so feel free to to do whatever you want.

And to be fair, I think the top level of 4on4 never have been higher than it is atm. But the scene is very polarized (like it always has been?), with the most competetive and active players gathering up in 2-3 clans (f0m, sr, sd).

The problem is lazy players that don't want to improve. To help motivate people, we need a healthy group of players in every skill group, to ensure competition for everyone. Not polarize even more.

Problem is that you can't include everyone in a draft league, the skill level would be too spread out with too many teams. Theres enough div1 players alone in this scene to make an interesting draft league with enough teams and still maintain a high level of 4on4. Div3 teams still got EQL wheres theres enough variety and teams in their division, did you perhaps even take a look at what the top of the scene is like? theres 3 teams active, rest are inactive. Theres enough projects and work being put into the lower divisions of quakeworld already, and without that work the scene wouldnt attract players so its understandable. But you also need to maintain a high skill level to get new players to start playing, else there wouldn't be anything worth striving for as a player. If anyone could start up quakeworld and compete with the best it wouldnt interest anyone. You look at the new players that have arrived in the scene for the past ~3-4 years they have all been very competetive and eager to improve. Whats it worth if the highest level of quakeworld is not even 25% of what it is today with Fom and sr in the top?

One of good example of pro player turning into a casual player is Fix. He used to be THE best player in QW scene, now he's a regular player in div2.

Hmm, shit how bad I must be atm