Another thing. You are all aware of the fact that when you use google, youtube etc the results get more and more personalized until everything that shows up kinda agrees with you and your opinions until you believe just about anything and it also seems that everyone else agrees with your thoughts too right?

haha, hal.flost nailed it!

Haha, I'm speechless. Extra points to Gryffindor for creativity.

Well, genarally those theories started when Internet era began. Perhaps due to the fact that it is still one medium that is really hard to control. The others: radio, tv, press... are a piece of cake. And this bill that would control internet may be the proof that something's going on and someone doesnt wish some revelations to be put into the spotlight.
On the fakenick gate: that is being investigated now by EQL admins and the evidence is being gathered. End of story.

Well my warning lamps go on full tilt when someone has to capslock different important sections of their text:
"ALL UNDER THEIR CONTROL"
Yep, we are controlled by "them". There will always be ppl with more power than you. Get used to it, demonstrate or whatever. The result will be the same. Someone will have alot of power.

Also:
"Why the fuck do you think that we don't get this shit taught in school?"
We learn stuff in school that is suitable for managing our jobs and social life. We live in "their system". We have to learn to work in it. Go ahead and make a new system, Im sure you will teach the kids whatever suits your needs. Nothing changes, we are just taught something new. Also, try teaching kids and juveniles an economic system that the ones who work with it even cant explain in full. Waste of time.

And:
"They even control what you eat!!!"
Yeah since we arent hunters and gatherers anymore we have to buy food. Food companies want to maximize earnings by using cheap stuff, and also stuff that makes you want to eat more. Deal with it buy making your own food from raw materials. They dont use certain ingredients to control ppl or make us dull. We get dull because we are malnutritioned by unhealthy food, thats it.

These are all typical sentences coming from a conspiracy theorist, lunatic, etc etc. Not saying that megalodon is one, he just set of my warnings with these sentences.

Even before internet ppl could talk, print pamfletts and send pirate radio etc.
You know what the internet has done? It has made it possible for ppl, and lunatics, all over the world to connect, share and publish stuff waaayyy faster and waayy more than ever before.
Just because someone publish something online it doesnt make it true.

It's your kind of mentality that holds us back from being a truly free society. Just because you think they are lunatics or conspiracy theorist, doesn't mean they don't have VERY valid points about the core issues of banking systems, and their influence on the whole world.

Did you even see the The Money Masters video? Or his newer The Secret of Oz Winner, Best Docu of 2010 v.1.09.11

There is not talk about secret ingridients in your food supply, or reptilians, but about fundamental knowledge about how the banking system works, how the countries are getting COMPLETELY screwed by it and there is NO way out of it, unless you make radical change and as a people or country, take your power back from international banks.

Also I have to stress this - it's not guesswork or conspiracy jibber jabber ... THIS HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES OVER IN THE WORLD!!! People just forget so fast, also knowledge is shared faster now and you can look up a lot more stuff, a generation back you were probably in no man's land.

wake up people! .... NOW!

here is another good little update from Bill Still: Croatia & Iceland

So sick with iceland.. some they privatized the national bank, this bank targeted uk/dutch private citizens with big interest rewards... this meant whole pensions fonds, police retirement fonds and houndreds of thoussands of ppl deposited their own savings into this bank - based on the good reputation Iceland had - eventhough now this was a private bank that had NOTHING to do with iceland per say. It was not backed by Iceland.

Here's the kicker. The money that got depoisted, they now, by using fractional banking, invested (lend out) to russians and other ludicris GIGANTIC projects for 10 times the value. It's simply wrong what Johnny says about the banks can only lend out 90$ on a 100$ deposit. No, they can lend out $1000 !!!!! When are you gonna understand this? And it's all on the premise that the ppl will pay back the 1000 + interest - money that they created OUT OF THIN AIR - its so insane it's hard to believe, I know the feeling

Communists thought (and still think, lol) they would get a free and equal society too you know.
Everyone is not on the "freedom and equality for all" boat so in the end someone will get all the money and power even in a new type of society.
Its just human nature to be competetive. Change that and become free... or I guess no unless you call being dead being free, no competition actually means ending the human world.
Acquiring the most money is the ultimate for of human competition.

In qw we should compete but in real everyday life we shouldnt?

It sucks to be controlled but to be honest, even if you gather almost everyone in the world you would still have alot of ppl working against it, very powerful ppl.

I have a sucky mentality? Or do I just realize that we all have 1-100+ years each to have fun etc. Spending those years yelling and shouting at politicians and bankmen isnt really my cup of tea.

Oh and let me add: inb4 shitstorm

offtop warning! sorry :-P


I am able but why would i ? its not my role . anyway i take my converastion with Itsinen like a promise he will take care of this ; but most important thing is that ppl missed their chance to save face .
Refering to case I have brought I have talked about fakenicker reveal procedure with Itsinen and this matter shows how important it is ; shows why you need law , regulations and procedures . it has effect also in banking and rest , it work like you said "So far noone has been able to post something showing that this is true"
means you can fakenick until you will get caught . Thats why it lasts 2 seasons.

I didn't bother watching others than David Icke and after a couple of minutes it seems he is not far from Michael Moore. "If you take a credit of $50000, you pay $50000 plus interest... the interest is never created. In any point of time, there is not enough units of exchange....to pay principal plus interest". He never heard of gross domestic product? Why was money printed in the first place? To replace squirrel skins or gold as means of payment? Is all the gold dug out somehow, GDP=0?

Dig into monetary theory and figure out such concepts as M0, M1, M2 etc. M0 is used to in representing notes and coins in circulation and reserves. This does grow and is not managed by private banks as David somehow lets you understand. What he is actually referring to is M2. For example in US both M0 and M2 has been growing roughly at same rate despite fractional-reserves. You could also use M1 here, it ditches reserves and includes checking/current accounts. And surprisingly M1 vs. M2 is roughly 1:10. Despite the ability to use credit to create credit.
Currency, M1, M2 and M3. And yeah, uncontrolled printing of money is dangerous business (Japan).

And then he makes the "Michael Moore" -trick, "people losing their homes, their businesses...". OMG, THIS GUY REALLY UNDERSTANDS HOW I FEEL AND WHAT I'VE SEEN HAPPEN! Please. From the "art of persuading people".

All this said, I'm by no means saying the system works or is perfect. People are not clever enough to judge for themselves. As Ake Vader said, think at least three times before taking a loan... Brilliant US examples again. People bought houses they couldn't afford without thinking any bad scenarios: 1. what if house prices drop? 2. what if I lose my job? 3. these happen at the same time (maybe not likely, but usually if the #1 happens... #2 is not far). Then shit hit the fan and you have way more debt than your house is worth and no job to fulfill your contract. Surprise!

Should you blame the banks or yourself in this situation? Or the government (legislation)? I believe the two first parties will always make the same mistakes if the third doesn't make it impossible. People are stupid and banks (and companies in general) will do anything for profit, that's their "raison d'etre" usually. Nice enough some banks also got fucked too. I feel some more could go the same way in Europe too as well as private investors (case Greece).

I'm sure David thinks interest rates are the DEVIL ITSELF! Why would anyone lend money without getting some reward for the risk this guy loses his job and can't pay you back? Or the fact that he himself can't use the money? Come on Mr. Icke. People are greedy.

Yeah, and as was said also in wizard of oz "if you give people something for free, they will _ALWAYS_ take it, doesn't matter if it will destroy them eventually, even if you tell them".

So when you know that fact, that people are easily tricked, WHY ON EARTH would you let private banks, with own proift and power gain in mind, control such important things in society as the whole monetary system. That has power to make boom/bust at will and suck up all land/property at will.

And it has nothing to do with banks that cannot earn interest... its interest on the money ORIGINALLY CREATED. It's the FIRST MONEY that come in to existence, that are created with a debt on it from the start - you sound smart, why don't you direct this specific issue??

Doesn't it sound totally fkn bizzare, that a PRIVATE COMPANY, can print their own money, lend it out to governments and demand interest on EVERY bill created??? W T F.

M0 here, M1 there bla bla. all fkn bs talk around the real issue .. we are getting buttfucked on a global scale!

And think about this. Bank #1 prints money, lends it to the government (demands interest on it, collected by taxing the people).

The government now gives this money to banks #1-10.

People behind bank #1 owns companies or projects, that take HUGE loans from banks #1-10 - money "dissapears" and the banks go bust.

What happens? Government asks bank #1 to print more money, so they can give to banks #1-10 so they don't go bankrupt, because THAT would be bad.

wheee and around we go. wtf

Why are the politicians agreeing to this ridicilous cycle? Cause those aren't killed in the line of duty, is bought and paid for. Simple as that. Or too stupid to know what's going on.

And ofc it's not just the banks themself, that take the money they printed, look at icesave, that took billions from private citizens and pensionfonds, and gave it away to gigantic silly projects.

I remember in Denmark when Iceland bought fucking everything. The largest mall in copenhagen, not one but several.
They opened a news paper that had so much debt it was insane, but they still poored houndreds of millions in it.
Ofcourse the bosses got paid BIGTIME, but who paid the bill when the shit collapsed? The banks, but don't worry.. government bailed that shit out.. how? Loaning more money from central banks, and putting regular people in huge debt FOR LIFE by demanding sick taxation.

Just ask ppl in ireland, greece, iceland etc. And more is to come they are waiting in line

Some might argue that the problem is not with the banks, but those who are choosing to borrow money from them
The way some people carry on you would think that charging interest for a loan is some sort of crime, when the reality is that it is just the cost of borrowing.

You are as stupid as the rest of them. It's not about borrowing money from a bank at interest, when the money is already in circulation.

It's the fact that bank who PRINTS BRAND NEW MONEY, lends the FIRST money out, AT INTEREST, to the countries, why? Because the politicians who set this arrangement are bought and paid for, or pressured into submission BY the bankers power. You really don't get it do you. PLEASE try and watch Bill Still's moneymasters before making a comment - you owe yourself the oppertunity to understand at least the history and underlying mechanism before making shallow remarks as "well its just how it works"

Society needs money > goverment gives authority to PRIVATE COMPANY to print this money > but can only lend them out to government AT INTEREST > government gives this money to regular banks in society > these banks can now lend out 10x as much on those money > if banks fails government has to loan new money AT INTEREST from original private company to save banks or giant cooporations > how do they pay back original money they loan? TAXES!

And ofcourse its done through complicating banking stuff, its not easy to understand all technical details, but main concept is very easy to understand.

"Yeah, and as was said also in wizard of oz "if you give people something for free, they will _ALWAYS_ take it, doesn't matter if it will destroy them eventually, even if you tell them"."

Thats a fact for smart people? :/ And best documentery movie 2010? Thats a fact too?
According to biffy yes.

Try google the other finalists..

And who should take the risk of lending out money? :F Cant all trade in hotdogs and fur. Investments are usually a must for growth. And i dont think communism will ever work.
Bad investments lead to this now. That usually means smart people trying to get the dummer guys money.

And why are all these kind of movies allways 2h plus? :>

(sry for possible bad english)

maybe you should ask yourself why the attentionspan is <5min clips

Best animation of 2010 @ biffy

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1358989/

edit: deleted something might be offensive and not to smart to start :>

Ill watch the movie when i get a chance. That i promise to try, and mayby i change my view.

Im not so good at economics, i know that.

But some of the facts here are kinda shitty, that i know..

And what does that have to do with federal reserve/international banks, printing money for governments, that they demand back with interest????

You are completely missing the point like most people. WHY DO THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TO PAY A COMPANY, FOR THEM TO FABRICATE MONEY THAT WE CAN USE IN THE SOCIETY??????


That the governments in turn make bad investments with those money, is a whole other ballgame.
For example Croatia. After the war ended there they were independent, and economy going good. International banks bought all but one of the banks in Croatia, they now proceeded to convince the government to loan money. The politicians went to the public and said "its neccessary to borrow this money, to boost our economy more and help build back our infrastructure".

And so they did ... borrowed billions from internetional banks to build roads. Who build them btw? Oh ye, AMERICAN COMPANY.
All this money that they loaned, were directly send to international coorporations and other banks. So new roads, but not build by croatians, and now they are in huge debt to these banks.

Now the central banks can tell them "you have to join the EUR", where they will have control over Croatia's economy cause they have control over the EUR.

It was good game

Ok so now we know what the problem is. What is the solution?

Also, before setting this solution into play, ask yourself who told you about the solution and what their agenda and objects might be.
If you dont, you are just as easily fooled as all the politicians etc that you have talked about so far.

I bet the germans didnt know what they had coming when they started listening to Hitler. So be careful before listeing to ppl with great plans to heal society.

Sorry Para but I feel I need to fill some basics here. I'm sure this will help no one, but I'll still write some...

Banks don't print notes or press coins, they can only "create" credit. Well, private banks that is. It's usually either government or a central bank. Printing as a term is used for actual notes, not credit. FED or ECB are not private banks, they are government/EU authorized units. Their purpose is not fucking people up but rather trying to control them. They got three tools: 1. discount rate, 2. open market operations and 3. controlling reserve rate.

1. Discount rate is also known as risk free rate, sort of base rate these government run agencies feel is good for economy. Now we are living a very rare time of rates historically, they are really low. Low interest rate makes lots of projects look good when you are judging them based on how much it will cost versus how much it will produce. If we need $100 dollars for this factory and we don't have the money, do we have to pay $110 or $130 for someone to lend (be it credit or full-reserve situation) us money for this project? If the project outcome is at $120 you can see that the first case (lower interest rate) makes it a worthy project while the latter doesn't. When the economy is blooming you can imagine that there are shitloads of good looking projects. This is when FED/ECB rise their rates thus making some of these projects look uninteresting and therefore tries to maintain economical stability.

2. Open market interventions means that FED/ECB buy or sell government bonds (bonds can be considered). When they buy these bonds they increase money supply. Government then deposits this money into banks as Para said before, therefore expanding money supply. Now banks have excess liquidity so they are capable of expanding their credits. This naturally leads to inflation and lowering of interest rates. The first tool is used long term, this tool short term. (the effect on interest rates can be figured out this way: bonds are now selling for $98 with a face value of $100, that is the investor who buys it for $98 will get $100 later on. now central bank buys these bonds, increasing demand increases their price. if the price goes to $99 the investor will only get $1 interest instead of $2 earlier, thus a lower interest)

3. Reserve requirements. 1:10 anyone? This also has effect on the second tool, how powerful that is. Say central bank buys $100 worth of bonds, government deposits this money into banks and the ratio defines how much credit banks can create. Using this tool is even more seldom than the first one.

Please also consider the effect of printing money (or open market intervetions by a central bank). The idea is somewhat along this principle: there is X amount of gold and Y amount of $$$ (M0 for example). When you print money you will increase Y thus bring down Y/X rate -> price of gold goes down ($$$/unit gold). That's called inflation. Same happens (to some extent) with creating credit too. What D.Icke is missing is that the amount of gold can also be increased, therefore it is possible to pay the interests UNLESS some idiot agrees to pay more interest than he can make up by digging gold (bigger loan than your salary will make up).

Well, Japan didn't think too much of this. They fought deflation with open market interventions, central bank bought more government bonds that was needed to bring the interest rate down to zero. They've had more or less zero interest rate as well as excess liquidity. Out of control.

And what goes with why government has to pay interest? Why should government be different here? You can invest in government bonds too (well, usually the minimum size is vast and private investors have to use funds to get into investing into government bonds). Would you loan money for your government without getting interest? Or should a central bank buy bonds from private companies? Doesn't make much sense... On the other hand the interest rate is one goal for the central bank here.

Again, there are problems but these Moore-type 'theorists' can fuck off. It is yet again easy to miss details such as that European Central Bank is not trying to impoverish the governments (who by the way are behind the ECB) by taking interest but rather maintain stability in euro.

3. Reserve requirements. 1:10 anyone? This also has effect on the second tool, how powerful that is. Say central bank buys $100 worth of bonds, government deposits this money into banks and the ratio defines how much credit banks can create. Using this tool is even more seldom than the first one.

But you can create depression by contracting money. Taking money out of supply - this is all controlled by the banks. higher the interest, refuse to make new loans, demand payment on old loans NOW, that they know ppl can't pay, then take their properties. Politicians don't want panic, think about election years etc. But banks can threaten them to do as they please, by these "tools". And they have done so in the past. Just look at the history.

And it's also both hard to understand/explain because the subject is very complicated and they have all these tools. But please watch that 3½ hour video and refute what he is saying, or tell me that he is wrong somehow or that the debt system today is fine and dandy. Cause maybe I'm totally wrong?

But looking around us, and looking at the FACTS of history it's hard to believe that
And Bill Still's mastersofmoney is nothing like Mr. Icke. I know most of you just checked the first 2 movies, when it's actually the third and last that is by FAR the most interesting and enlightening.. and have the most information.

Also note what is being said - it's not just banks that are evil. If you are a soverign nationn you should NEVER have to borrow money from banks, you can make your own money - that doesn't mean there is not a need for banks in the society. The bank is there to serve the public in many ways.

But you don't need to give all the POWER to the bankers as they have now through many financial institutions. It's not like one company you can just say "lets get 'em boys". This are the most powerful people in the world and they will do anything they can to stay in power keeping nations depended on them through debt they can never repay.

But there ARE no government banks, it's privatized, central banks also. They just fool you with names like "federal reserve", but its 100% private, has nothing to do with government, except government gave this company the right to PRINT MONEY.

Here you can see the conclusion and in detail the proposed sollution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JXt1cayx0hs#t=10648s

Where he also said we should not focus so much on individuals of power to try and "take them down", but focus on the real issue - the monetary debt system nearly all nations are based on, with these big international banks behind.

"But you can create depression by contracting money. Taking money out of supply - this is all controlled by the banks. higher the interest, refuse to make new loans, demand payment on old loans NOW, that they know ppl can't pay, then take their properties."

Not quite true. You are mixing central banks and private banks here I assume. Have you ever heard PRIVATE banks quitting their business, giving loans? Or demand payments NOW to make people suffer? That's bad business for banks. A good customer is a customer who owes the bank an amount that does not bankrupt him, a bad customer is one who has too much loan and will never be able to pay it back. And then you talk about higher interest rates. This is two part. Risk-free rate is more or less controlled by central banks. When shit hit the fan in US and Europe, central banks did NOT rise interest rates, they lowered. We've come from roughly ~5% p.a. to 1,5%. On the other hand private banks use MARGINS which relate to the risk of lending (or getting the payment). When economy is turning worse, they will increase the margins to reflect the risk. These DO NOT (normally) affect old loans, thus not making it harder for people in debt but rather limit more people getting into debt. And come on, banks for sure don't want to hold shitty property at Sjöbo Sweden in their balance sheet. It's a pain to get rid of these assets that do not make any profit. And taking money out of supply... you argue private banks would do this, not give loans or credits? Credits are booming when people are in distress? And the real unit controlling monetary supply, a central bank, what did they do when shit hit the fan and people got into trouble with their housing loans? Lowered interest rates and pushed more money into market (which is one way to lower interest rates).

Again, I'm not saying the system is good today Para! It's way easy to get yourself into trouble. It's not because there are central banks trying to stabilise markets, it has more to do with private banks providing liquidity in means of credit for people who in fact are not capable of taking care of their credits. In US it's even more fucked up, most credit card users just roll their credits and don't even have the intention to pay back. Why do these people get credit cards?! NOT CENTRAL BANK ISSU, it has more to do with private bank LEGISLATION. As long as these poor maxed out credit card owners can pay their interests they are good clients to private banks. Should there be a rule that you need to clear your credit cards for one month each year?

"They just fool you with names like "federal reserve", but its 100% private, has nothing to do with government, except government gave this company the right to PRINT MONEY"

What is FED? Who makes the decisions? Federal Reserve Board. Quote from their website: "The seven members of the Board of Governors are nominated by the President of the United States and confirmed by the U.S. Senate." Nothing to do with government? Silly me, I thought Mr. Obama was with the government.

"Where he also said we should not focus so much on individuals of power to try and "take them down", but focus on the real issue - the monetary debt system nearly all nations are based on, with these big international banks behind."

THUMBS UP! There are several known ways to handel monetary policy and economical stability. Which one is the best? Which one works in what kind of situation? To me it seems this system works as long as the economy is going up, but when it stalls there's too much negative impacts. But what would be the alternative for debt system? Pick one:

1. You would save all your life for a house and buy it when you die?
2. Communist way?
3. Your way?

"If you are a soverign nationn you should NEVER have to borrow money from banks, you can make your own money"

Oh Para... why don't we just skip the taxes and just print more money and cover all the problems with new shiny bills? Healthcare has too little funds, FIRE UP THE PRINTERS! Government airliner (Alitalia for example) is in trouble, let's print some money for them! Greece is in trouble and can't meet their payments, ARE THEY OUT OF INK!?

Would it work? Or would there be any problems with inflation?

Sorry, this is somewhat rude but I like it just this once

Thank you dedi, for writing the only posts that sounds reasonable to my ears in this thread :-)

But then again, I guess I'm just another brain washed sheep according to the other voices in here. A bit interesting, although unusual discussion to follow on qw.nu anyways.