No, not really, but I do think it could be the difference between losing 400-100 and losing 300-100 for those teams that are used to playing with overlay on. All in all, I still think the European teams would win through pure experience and skill.

I want to add as well - if I were playing in the tournament and not broadcasting it, I may very well have voted teamoverlay off as I've played over a decade without it being enabled and gotten used to reading mm2. I understand all point of views here, but since I am now trying to broadcast this game to as many people as possible, my number one goal is to make games more entertaining to watch and having teamoverlay on may help in that endeavour, albeit very slightly. I don't expect Australia to beat Finland for example, regardless of teamoverlay, but maybe they could get some extra frags. My main goal in all this is the excitement of the game, and while I can spend 20 minutes on stream explaining how exciting it is how good some people are at reading and acknowledging mm2 messages, it is not very interesting to the viewer.

In a simple said way - I am on both sides of this argument. It's hard being stuck in between, but for the sake of broadcasting I have to vote for it on. Someone mentioned a poll somewhere in the thread and that could possibly be one way to go. The issue is just getting people to actually vote on said poll. Another way to go is for admins to simply decide what they want to use in their tournaments - it is their tournaments after all. So yeah, I'm on both sides in this argument but I do see the benefit of allowing TO for non-EU teams and I do not think it would hurt the European teams too much, if you know what I mean.



I disagree. I think this thread is one of the more important threads the last couple of years. The more people that voice their opinion here the better - it gives a clearer view of where people stand and what decisions should be made. Of course nobody likes toxicity or the feeling of it, but as long as we keep it civil, this thread is extremely important for the future of 4on4.

Yours,
Andeh

Yes, in the example above, you wouldn't have to use voice to ask "is anyone in the water?" or keep track of the mm2 to know. You may think that's a "bad" thing, but what I've noticed when playing with experienced players is that teamoverlay frees up the communication channels to do a lot more interesting stuff, like coordinating attacks or planning unconventional strategies that weren't previously likely. We no longer have to use up our mm2/voice channels for basic status reporting, which allows us to do MORE with those communications, not less. If you choose to be lazy with teamoverlay, you'll be fine in mix games but you will fall behind the competitive teams that use it as a tool to do more.

It's like back when people thought personal computing going to reduce the average work day from 8 hours to 1. What it really did was allow people to accomplish 10x as much in an 8 hour day. I think if some of these EU players/teams gave it more of a chance they'd realize the possibilities that come along with it.

" I remember when team scripts were first coming in with the automatic team talk on item pick-ups and deaths and pointing to items etc. You could argue that it made team play easier for noobs, and took away team skills aswell. Now those scripts are considered a feature. At the time no one complained, it just made team comms easier and added to the game. To me these overlays sound like exactly the same thing. Just an improvement to team communication. Yes it makes it easier. Yes it changes the game. I'd argue for the better. Less clutter, more space for even better comms and team play! If u argue that these things are like hacking, may as well take away voice and team talk all together. Or remove team binds and just use voice. Or just use team binds and no voice. Guess it comes down to preferences really. I'd say its an improvement in most ways, though in some situations it may create less exciting encounters. These times will be pretty rare though in the scheme of things...

I think learning to use mm2 (read and post) is one of the skills in the "qw skill package".. and we shouldn't be moving away from it - but encourage it..

It's a skill because it takes time, it takes effort, it makes you having to prioritize what you are doing, taking a split second to read/post that mm2 or kill msg or aiming/moving more precisely.
It's one more thing you _have to keep in mind_ while doing several other things at once which helps distinguish players skill level by: Multitasking just a little bit more.

"Mechanically" it's also a skill - I used WASD before, but found that my tiny hands couldn't reach all the keys I wanted to hit, so I moved to TFGH instead so I managed to use more mm2 keys.. - Most of you use WASD and you have to reach for mm2 keys perhaps? - Awkward hand movements perhaps that influences your movement/weaponbinds, that others practiced a lot to get used to perhaps..

Also like Drake said, it's not just you reading, it's also your teammates having to report - it's apart of the "team work"...

4on4 shouldn't move towards losing: The Multitasking/mechanical/Teamwork elements of mm2.


The Broodwar/StarCraft 2 analogy is good:
SC2 removed ALOT of the multitasking and mechanical skill involved in the game - the gameplay changed considerably, and actually how you play the two games is vastly different.
It's not a perfect analogy, as teamoverlay might not be a similarly dramatical effect:
But argument many made is that "Oh, you don't like SC2? Well Broodwar Still exists...."
So, one harsh argument one might make is: "Oh, you don't like how QW is played, well q3 exists...!"

Just because other games have one thing, doesn't mean that QW has to have it when it changes how the game is played.
Perhaps we are a special case as "QuakeWorld is dead" - and we are trying to keep everyone playing... but if we keep trying to accommodate in fear of not attracting/keeping players, we risk losing our uniqueness that keeps many here for 20years..? (Like there is absolutely no way we can ban tb3 in a major tournament - though that might be a major attractor to keep new people playing...)


I've played with quite a lot of "brand new players" now through the years - in our clan that wanted to take in rookies not just mixes. 'Regular pracs'
The players that evolved in 4on4 the most were the ones that managed to adapt to using mm2 fairly well.

There is so much vital information in mm2, that teamoverlay can't replace as well... Where enemy is going, what is happening at x location, how many enemies are at x, where enemy weapons are, tricks.. ++quirky stuff.. It also seems to be much more reliable than teamoverlay, as there is a delay on teamoverlay?
I think mm2 helps tremendously in improving "game sense" - and knowing what is happening on the map.

Sure it's really hard, I can't do it all the time, and forget stuff, especially in combination with voice com..! Like today, I stole Ring from Nigve Cus I was slower to understanding the situation/reading ;p
Better players do it better, and one reason(of many ;D) their gameplay is better is cus they are better at using mm2 in combination with all the other things they do.

It's really handy to learn how to use mm2..! So consider turning teamoverlay off, and not relying on it in your games !
( I don't organize to many things anymore - since others have been doing it - but I wouldn't feel 100% comfortable with organizing events where teamoverlay is on, because it's "in the skillset"... )
If you could convince me it's not a skill, then well... sure...maybe..


Personally I don't like playing with overlay on very much, and even mm3 is somewhat annoying, because people stop reporting (and I "don't know what's going on"..) Just knowing where someone is and what they have isn't very fulfilling.. :\ I like the dings, the spam msgs when packs are dropped, the lost spam, the took spam, the points at powerups/enemies... wakes me up and makes me feel like my teammates are involved ! ;D


Think the best argument for having teamoverlay on is to increase the likelihood the players that can't adapt to mm2 stay with us, and as Andeh touched on making it more approachable to other regions..
There were several rookies that joined d99: That expressed frustration in not being able to adapt to mm2. It likely was not the sole reason they "disappeared" again from the scene, but they did express frustration. Some wanted teamoverlay, others wanted everything on voice..
- Again, other players adapted to mm2 and became better players by it (in my view).

On the other hand...
There are many people that have played QW for tonnes of years that don't want to play qw with teamoverlay at all. Their opinion should also matter.


We can't appease either group, and I don't want to lose any of the players.. so perhaps we should just let it hang in the air as unresolved....

It's a a lot like the maps debate this, we will never likely agree on a solution. Some people only play tb3, some people stop playing qw cus of tb3 only.. We would likely get more people by banning tb3 - should we do it? The skill gap is enormous on those maps for new players!!!! No, we shouldn't because people enjoy playing them, and it's apart of the challenge of QW.

We won't be able to make everyone happy and so we shouldn't make a new "standard" - though leave the door open for teamoverlay now and then/admin call.. (even though I hate it...
But again, using mm2 is in the skillset in my view and we shouldn't move away from it - but encourage people to learn it !



(( "A motivated team could get everyone on the same team to make a config that would get something similar to teamoverlay while still adhereing to all rulesets. [...]
disabling team overlay is security through obscurity. It isn't really disabling the feature, it is just hiding it from those without the means or having spent the time to configure their settings esoterically enough."" - BogoJoker
Euhm, I haven't heard about this before, super interesting actually - how would that function - Can we ban it somehow ? ;D Another thread perhaps... ;P ))

I agree with a lot of what you said Ocoini.

As I said in my previous post, I'm on both sides of this argument, but I really want to make it more accessible for the other regions outside of EU. The basic two arguments are;
1) have them practice mm2 like we did in EU, that's only fair because we had to do it
2) they don't have 20 years to practice mm2 like the Europeans did

I leave it up to the rest to decide what's right... I know the Australians are working hard on trying to get mm2 setups working and practicing to read them because of the Nation's Cup where you might play 1 or 2 games without overlay, and that's a good thing, but it'll take many years before they're on the same level as Europeans when it comes to reading mm2s.

I don't think there's a right or wrong... only a question of what direction we want to be going. And like I said, as a broadcaster I have no choice but to vote on for the sole reason of making games between continents more competitive.

Many good points though Ocoini, kudos.

/andeh

Teamoverlay ON is a joke. Then its another 4v4 game than OFF.

Im not sure why that rule got into the Nations Cup. I can only blame myself for not policing it, but im not involved, so who cares.

It seems everytime i step away things go to hell. Like when i left the NQR crew and TB3 was sealed forever. Fuck all maps.

How about enemyforceskins ON then? I always wanted different skins on enemy coz it adds another tactical aspect to the game.

I am voted down on that.

Oh what the hell, dont mind me, im only ranting out my opinions.

Lets open the floodgates and use every option available! Lets code ourselves to the top!

(No im not debating this, this is a political standpoint, not a debate. Either your left or you are right).

---------------------------------------------

I forgot to add this:

TEAMPLAY is a skillset. An important skillset that can change many games.

You REMOVE parts of that skillset by having teamoverlay ON, then teams with less teamplay SKILL, gets more of an advantage.

If you disagree with that im not talking to you coz you are an idiot, stupid and incompetent.

Peace

LOL!

Maybe play more than 3 maps?

...its only been 23 years now...

Excuse me while i laugh myself to death

I am not sure this will be the case. I believe it's more likely it would be most beneficial to those who spend more time to analyze the full impact of the feature and develop strategies that incorporate the possibilities most efficiently. My assumption is this would apply more to those have very efficient mechanisms already without teamoverlay as they are more competent at "getting the best out of what's allowed".

For the rest, e.g. those teams with 'less teamplay skill' as you say, it could result in more relaxed games and less focus distraction but probably not in some groundbreaking new styles that are developed based on the teamoverlay functionality.

Seeing that many oldtimers are against teamoverlay with the dynamic information flow: What is the opinion on the suggestion I read on Discord (I can't remember by whom, sorry, I don't want take credit for this idea) to have a trimmed teamoverlay that has no automatism but in fact would simply be an information corner and display the statuses of the teammates, that were last reported? This way, players need to report continuously to avoid outdated information being displayed to your teammates, but the information are structured in a nicer way and one wouldn't receive 5 status messages within 2 seconds from the same player just to make sure it's read.

Drake, Milton and Baresi already spoke.

Case closed for me.

FWIW I agree %e should get blocked, most teams using voice now so it's too easy to setup a feedback loop. Someone cited a great example I experienced myself the other day, teammate reported 4e so i said they can't have anyone other side of the map. But I don't think some 'cheaty' feature being left in is good enough reason to allow TO in itself.

As for this Bogo/Milt debate about whether you can achieve the same through config, if it's "probably trivial" why don't the pro-TO players just come up with a suitable config and use that then? Surely if it is so vitally important to have TO and the game is ruined without it they would put the effort into simulating it and then release the config to force the hand of administrators into allowing 'automated' teamoverlay.

I gave it some consideration a while back and concluded that it would be pretty hard to keep players ordered consistently. Bogo's idea about an external timer triggering a key press and syncing with teammates might have mileage.

There's this golden rule of game design: "The optimal way to play a game should also be the most fun way to play that game"

The challenge is that for players that have been playing this (or any) game for years, any rather-boring-grind aspect of the game (that happens to be the optimal way to play the game) over time becomes a "fun challenge" for those players. It's not their fault, it's nobody elses fault, even I liked a lot of "obscure grind skill" aspects of QW back in the day.

Unfortunately, if you want to push through with changes that remove "grind" from the game, you will always remove something from the game that some of the long-active players like and you would erase some of their skills and experience. You may mean well, you may want to remove only the most lowest-hanging fruit that feels like a no-brainer, you may be light years away from actually "dumbing down the game", but you will still invalidate what those players have learned and invested their time in. If you have any empathy you will see this sucks. "Yeah I don't mind that this seemingly obscure skill that I developed over the years is all of a sudden completely irrelevant in the game that I like to play" ... said nobody ever

Are these players getting anything in return? For example, independent physics probably made irrelevant some specific skills of playing on locked FPS rates. But at the same time it opened a whole new world for new skills that became more relevant, and they were more fun to "get good at" than the skills before. The "net gain" was positive. Does enabling teamoverlay do anything similar? Does it have a positive net gain?

Wow, nice to see you! It's been a while since I saw the old god himself post. <3

The best argument i can find is that teamoverlay is set to off

on browsing this site today it suddenly occurred to me that my motivation to play qw at all dwindled at almost exactly the time this thread and the ruleset changes were being discussed, hopefully others are not as sensitive as me about it in EU

Is it really the "best" argument? Or is it just your preference?



These are great points. It's worth keeping in mind that most of us learned mm2 because we HAD to, not because we thought it was a sacred gameplay skill, but because voice wasn't widely used or accessible and mm2 was the best option there was. It didn't feel like a "grind" any more than playing with a ball mouse or a 13" CRT did at the time. However, expecting the players of today to enjoy that same grind now that other options exist seems a bit unreasonable.

I also want to point out that teamoverlay does not remove the need for mm2. It does not report locations that are lost, items that are available, items the enemy took, packs that are dropped, enemies occupying certain areas, etc. It removes the need for the repetitive status messages mixing in with other team chat events. Yes, that makes communication easier to read, and to me that is a good thing. Will it affect the outcome of any high level 4v4 games? Not a single person has argued that it would.

nobody is doubting that it is more user friendly but as a whole qw isnt that user friendly (from a newbie point of view) all aspects of the game have very steep learning curve. my issue (and im sure a lot of others) is that it is too much info. eg you are holding red on dm3, you hear somebody tunnel, quick look at overlay, not a team mate, spam. that isnt skill, its abusing info. However if you asked your mates on mm3 or processed people status you would have the same info but taken in a skilful manner. there is absolutely no argument that will take away these facts on how the info can be abused and why it is wrong. i personally do think it would affect the outcome to top level games, if those top level games were very similar skilled. 1 frag can swing a game in a huge way, that frag could come from abusing the overlay

I don't need to look at overlay. If I here a sound in tunnel I fire. If it were a teammate, he would have told me in voice "coming RA tunnel".


It's actually just wasting time. If you take time to read overlay after hearing a sound from tunnel you will likely miss the enemy.



If they're very similar in skill then how would one team have an advantage? They'd both have access to the same overlay.

not really backing your argument for overlay very well when the use of real comms trumps the argument. not everyone calls tunnel especially not in mixes.



evidently not from experience and why i raised the point



because not every situation can be abused by overlay, as i said 1 frag can decide a game at the top level, that frag could come from overlay abuse. just because the other team also has overlay doesn't mean there will be a situation where it can be abused to make a difference

You claimed that using overlay to shoot RA tunnel is "abusing" the feature. I'm saying that's ridiculous.


Are you concerned about teamoverlay in mixes? I thought we were talking about high level games.


Not every situation can be "abused" by other features as well, such as /shownick or %e or virtually anything else for that matter. We use the features we have when they're most advantageous.


So we ARE talking about high level games then, where players notify their teammates when entering from RA tunnel. Also, you can use the whole "1 frag can decide a game" argument for just about anything. It's a cookie cutter argument. For example, "I think cl_smartjump is cheating because having a separate key for +moveup might mess you up in certain situations, and even 1 frag can decide a game."

I'll just stop replying, seems like a waste of time discussing it when you just twist things when a valid argument against it comes up. you are now only talking about high level games - go and read the first post again.

if you only want to talk high level games it is very simple, 95% of high level players do not want it on.

You said it would affect the outcome of high level games, but the example you used would not happen in a high level game. What am I "twisting" here?


Citation needed.

still need that citation ?

Can you give them a box of tissues with that, I can hear their sniffling across the Atlantic

I think the best idea is to have two different tournaments running at the same time. One with teamoverlay and one without. It would be nice to see all players in both tournaments. Just to see what would happen..

It's nice to play with the Americans. Teamoverlay is.. not my cup of tea, but i want to play Quakeworld and alot of it!

I can tell you whats happening. Nothing! It will not make any difference. People who cant read teamchat during games cant read teamoverlay too. How many times you get ask over voice how many rl we have?

No for team overlay guys... Allow it only for lower div clans maybe (but are they still that many low div clans anymore...?)
I had to learn QW without it and it pays off...
QW was created back in the days when nothing was easy... I know the world has changed now, gaming has changed as well but we've always been pretty conservative.

No, there are no clans anymore (at least active ones). Nowadays we're basically a community focusing on mixed games and temporarily establish teams for the duration of a certain league season (e.g. GetQuad draft or nations cup).