Im new to this game and I don't really want to make enemys the first thing I do.
But I feel the need to state my opinion. I dont like namedropping, so Im not going to do that.

Background:
I joined an rookie clan called Bloodpunch to be able to get some 4on4 experience.
But it wasnt long before alot of whine fell upon us for beeing "rookies" mainly due to Picke and Sectoid.
Who aren't rookies. We realized that we had a dilemma, we were too good for rookies and to bad for bronze.

Admins may claim that we choose to play bronze (and we did). but seeing how things are Im 100% sure they
wouldve put us there anyway.


NQR starts:
Sectoid havent played a single prac or 2on2 or anything at all. He hasn't even been on IRC for very long.
Picke we havnt seen in about a month.
some Inactivity, and slimbo almost leaves the clan.

We are now a rookie team with bad activity(starting to get a bit better)
playing in Bonze.

Seeing how new some of us are we have no clue on how to play.
One day roz plays a prac with us. and instantly starting to point us in right directions, with tactics, teamplay, and teamtalk.
As rookie myself my biggest goal is to be able to improve my game.
We had some fun being able to put up a fight at least.
So we and roz begun to talk about him playing for us and helping us out.

When then facing admins they said no.
At first we wasn't even provided with an argument.

I hadn't read the not.nqr blabla he wrote at this point, but when I did i started to believe it was maybe because of that.
I could understand if they didnt want him in the league after that. I really could.
But they tell us it has nothing to do with it. so I believe them, so if roz is allowed to play in nqr, why cant he play with us.

Here are my favorite arguments from admins so far.
(OBS!. First I want to add that no matter what admins decide to do about players, the decision should remain the same for EVERY clan)

** Roz are too good for bronze

## ARGUMENT failed. Admins have already decided that several div1-3ers have been allowed in bronze. And its only fair that all clans should be treated equally. Here again I could namedrop, but I choose not too. I don't have anything at all against any player in bronze. I only ask that if some clans are allowed. Then the others should be too? To much to ask?

Also I don't think clans should be denied to have someone they want to play with, If the clan is to good for a div, then its time for the clan to move div. not split it up.

This is obviously not the case for us, since using roz would not make us a competitor for the title or anything like that. but merely a mid skilled clan if we use our best lineup.


** So we have to weigh in your whine vs. 5 other clans whine if he joins.

### Is this really how correct decisions are being measured, by the amount of potential whine??!?!
That sounds really professional.

** Your clan is good enough already
### This was measured by one map we won big time vs samojedit. who is btw also a ROOKIE clan (the div we thought we were too good for) and
not a bronze clan. They don't even count that DM2 was really even and wasn't decided until the last minute vs this rookie clan.

I have more, but I feel this post is getting long enough.
Anyways I just felt like stating my opinion, and would really encourage other bronze players to speak their mind about this matter.

[ADDED:] Admins are welcome to speak too ,
Dont get me wrong. I do appreciate the good work you do to make Quake leagues possible.


And remember if you don't like whats happening with higher skilled players in div bronze. Don't use it as an argument against roz.
Use it as an argument against total disallowing/allowing. Because no matter what the rules are, they should be equal for everyone. am I right?

Peace out
and hope I didn't upset to many people using my freedom of speech.

sassa is nothing more than a rookie with good ping



allow him to play

welcome to qw rio and teammies!
hang over there.

- You don't have "bronze clan needs members" topic in the Transfers section of this forum
- You have 8 players on your lineup
- NQR has already started

As you say, same rules for everyone! I believe same rules will be applied to everyone and no gold-cup players will be allowed to join clans as a late addition. Some of us are already disappointed with arnette (who wasn't late addition).

Bronze at whining, all your own fault that you are there (knock knock) why pick high div players like picke?

Perhaps his skill level is above of that bronze, but still, one player can't really do shit unless he is totally div1.


This is where you are wrong. Samojedit has played a LOT together and their starplayer Oho has been more than one season in div2 class clan. However, they still fit in the bronze.


It's good to have some discussion. Obviously (as seen from time to time) not everyone can be satisfied. And also it's good to remember one player doesn't really make a team, however if he is really good one, things go a bit different. Basically admins just have to check the overall level of the team and then decide what to do, player additions during season are a bit harder than that though.

And regarding Roz, there is enough history to affect in decisions allowing him to join clans and play in NQR. If someone says otherwise, he's only trying to fool himself.

the fact that samojedit signed up for rookies, and probably moved to bronze, just because of Oho... got me to post them as a rookie clan.
because I never had any doubts that Oho was alot higher skilled

This is the conversation we had BEFORE the season started:
(21:46:49) (riosatiy2) have you thought about wether to place us in rookies or bronze
(21:47:27) (riosatiy2) personally I think it might be better to place us in bronze, some team has to finnish last, right?
(21:48:33) ([Soma]) it's hard to say
(21:48:41) ([Soma]) but i guess bronze would be a good idea indeed
(21:48:47) ([Soma]) you might not really have a chance of winning it
(21:48:53) ([Soma]) but you got a strong lineup nevertheless
(21:49:39) ([Soma]) and - even if you don't win - i think it might be a nice experience for you guys
(21:49:48) ([Soma]) playing people that are better than you is the best way to improve
(21:50:02) (riosatiy2) so true that last sentence
[...]
(21:51:02) (riosatiy2) thats why ive improved so much after just 3months, I dont hesitate to play vs someone whos much better than me
(21:51:16) ([Soma]) yeh
(21:51:21) ([Soma]) it's demotivating at the beginning
(21:51:24) ([Soma]) but in the end it pays off
(21:52:52) (riosatiy2) its not my call, but if I were leader I'd change our signup to bronze
(21:53:31) ([Soma]) we'll decide monday i guess
(21:53:50) (riosatiy2) Ill put it in topic
(21:53:56) (riosatiy2) se what the others think
(23:55:01) (riosatiy2) Vilka tycker att vi ska hoppa upp en division i nqr? [Jimo,rio,dape,dope,x,x]'
(23:55:36) (riosatiy2) "Who think we should jump up one division in nqr?"

next day:
(18:13:07) (riosatiy2) sign us up for bronze instead
(18:17:24) ([Soma]) patience my friend, patience.

on the same day bloodpunch first asked to add roz:
(17:36:16) ([Soma]) i don't get it... a bit over a week ago you were mister sportsman, not caring about losing games, "in it for the experience", everything okay etc
(17:38:05) ([Soma]) now that you're in bronze and things can't be reverted, i'm being messaged by you, jimo, nukie.. complaining that you're losing all games. what the hell?
[...]
(17:39:51) ([Soma]) and i find it annoying that courageous clans like allans vittnen had to bite the bullet in last NQR when they finished last - WITHOUT complaining
(17:40:21) ([Soma]) and over the last year they've improved quite a bit so they got good chances of ending mid-table or even playoffs
(17:41:28) ([Soma]) and then clans like bloodpunch come and bombard me with messages, saying that they really need a player from div1/2
(17:44:25) ([Soma]) and the most ridiculous part: on top of all that, you even try and make me look like the bad guy?
(17:44:45) ([Soma]) "and looking at other clans, it's absurd not letting him play for us" - nukie, yesterday
(17:45:05) ([Soma]) "theres no reason not to let him play with us in bp" -you, yesterday & today
[...]
(17:48:42) ([Soma]) (all the guys in) your clan wanted to be bronze cup, saying you don't mind losing... but now that you heave to deal with it, it's suddenly a huge problem.
(17:49:57) ([Soma]) anyway... that is MY opinion. it'll be discussed with the other admins. yesterday evening that wasn't possible any more.
(18:02:45) (riosatiy) well sorry if you feel that way, I have no clue what Nukie and Jimo has said to you. That are obviously their opinions... When I message you I dont speak for bloodpunch, because im not CL.. I speak for myself
(18:05:09) (riosatiy) I still dont care about loosing, because were probably going to do it anyways.. tho when we have played with roz it has been a very good learning experience for us.
(18:12:17) ([Soma]) it was you as a clan that decided to go for bronze. we didn't put you there against your will or anything
(18:12:33) ([Soma]) so i just think you should be prepared to take the consequences
(18:13:06) ([Soma]) everyone prefers winning to losing, me included
(18:13:27) ([Soma]) but my clan is in a similar situation than yours. theres maybe 1, maximum 4 clans we can beat in gold cup
(18:13:38) (riosatiy) Yeah and I think that most of us in the clan are.
(18:13:40) ([Soma]) against all other clans we got no chance of winning
(18:13:58) (riosatiy) not all, but most.
(18:17:09) (riosatiy) The thing for me with roz is, I as new player to this game is always looking for ways to improve my game. And I saw the oppertunity in having roz when he coached us ingame during a prac really helped alot.
(18:17:49) (riosatiy) I dont know how good hes supposed to be, but he hasnt impressed me that much, I think there are several players in bronze whom are better individual
(18:18:13) ([Soma]) well you guys - the same guys that previously had no problem playing in bronze and possibly losing most games - are putting me/us admins into the difficult position of either pleasing bloodpunch while heavily disappointing drastic collision, alans vittnen, div sub-zero, quinas, samojedit,....
[...]
(18:20:31) (riosatiy) ive only posted 2 screens
(18:20:38) ([Soma]) i meant nukie, on the forum
(18:20:56) (riosatiy) thats when PICKE,me,quesus,roz vs Nafianna with a rookieteam standin
(18:21:50) ([Soma]) yeah but sorry dude. you started off as a rookie team, asked to be promoted to bronze cup because you didn't mind losing games and wanted the challenge
(18:22:11) ([Soma]) and then you complain because comparing yourself to possibly THE BEST of all bronze clans didn't work out
(18:23:16) (riosatiy) I doubt the results would be any different vs lets say Quakeklan
(18:28:01) (riosatiy) I dont , and I know you doesnt either... go into the discussion of some of the other teams players.. I just think thats wrong, A team should be evaluated by its team performance not from their individual players "div". I know other bronze teams who have players far beyond bronze level but the team wouldnt do well at all in silver.. And thats the case for us too, even with roz playing every game, I doubt we would even reach top5 in bronze

Bottom line: If i take myself the time of discussing with you for almost an hour ON THE SAME DAY YOU FIRST ASKED TO ADD ROZ, then the least you could do is not talk shit by claiming we "didn't even provide you with an argument".


And that's why we're not giving in to the people that demand we remove Arnette from Naim. If Naim really do steamroll all teams in bronze, then we simply underestimated the impact he'd have. Opening the floodgates and allowing everyone to bronze would be trying to solve a problem by just creating more problem.


Samojedit have been around for several years and actually finished as Runner-Up in Division 5 of NQR Season 8, losing the final of the playoffs in a tight 2-3 game vs SmackThatAss. They are not rookies, just rusty. And Oho actually played for Fraggers United in between.


<njukie\OTH> you guys are assholes.
kthxbye!

God soma.... I like talking to you since you at least keep it in good tone usually.


I have the same problem as last time, Ill show you..
Please tell me if Im missing something here.



This is you saying the same thing 4 times. Basically: "You have only yourself to blame, since you said you were okay with bronze"
(even tho both of us know that we wouldve ended up in bronze anyways)

It has nothing to do with roz? you don't even mention his name??




FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMA.........
if you're going to use some insult to argue against me. please use something that I have said....NOT SOMEONE ELSE?!?!

You are missing the fact that I talked to you for an hour on the day your clan asked to add roz, yet you come here claiming that the admins didn't provide you with an argument? What's up with that? It's simply not true, period.


(17:41:28) ([Soma]) and then clans like bloodpunch come and bombard me with messages, saying that they really need a player from div1/2

It might not say "roz", but that's clearly me talking about him.


You are here, representing your clan, starting a thread titled "Bronze div - Bloodpunch - and roz", and I'm giving you a sample of the crap we get from one of your members. No it's not your fault and no you (personally) cannot be held responsible for the shit that other people say. I'm just trying to point out that arguing with bloodpunch is a getting a little... hmm... "pointless".

Yes I Agree, you mention that we have messaged you about him..........


no, no , no ,no ,no..
I suggest you read my post again, this time starting with the two first lines.

"Im new to this game and I don't really want to make enemys the first thing I do.
But I feel the need to state ###CAN I MAKE IT bOLD###?!----------> my opinion <<<<<------------ BODL####. I dont like namedropping, so Im not going to do that."

And somewhere near the end


"Anyways I just felt like stating !_MY OPINION_!"

and the very last line

"and hope I didn't upset to many people using ___MY____ freedom of speech."

Playing with a higher div player can really improve your teamplay and tactics. That's okay. At least if other team has nothing against it, but this only works for PRAC. If you are picking one for a league, that seems to me that you are not trying learn but win.

Who play league games to learn anyway?

And you don't think I already told him this very thing several times? :/

That I agree would be the case if some team tried to recruit reppie. Who wouldve turned the results around.
But if your clan is still a mid level bronze team, even with this "higher div" player. Why should the clan not be able to play league with its team.

No, I didn't think about anything.


So you are saying that player taking you from low bronze to mid bronze(with his high div skills and individual level) ain't turning results around? Why you need to be mid bronze so badly?

Thats exactly what Im saying, a clan and people should be able to play with friends and people they want. and after that be evaluated for divisions as a team, we would still be a bronze clan, and with roz individual skills, still a low one.. But combine that with all the help he gives with tactics (now i dont mean the prepared tactics, but the one you do ingame while the game changes around). and other support in form of teamplay organisation we maybe could reach a mid level.

but we as a clan will still be ranked as a bronze clan. and therefore I see no reason that we should not play together in bronze div.

One smart thing that has been in Q3 for a long while, is "coach" that is a client who are only able to spec the team hes coaching.
He can send teamsays to the team using normal mm2 and ofc use mm3.

This feature would be nice to have implemented in QW, then for example a rookie clan or something . Can have a more experienced friend coaching them during games.

If roz = sassa...

He is a better player than me. And if I would play in any of the teams in bronze cup, i doubt we would lose any maps. Most likely i would get more than 100 frags on every map.

Sassa is a nice guy, but if he tried his best during the games in bronze-cup, he would ruin the game for those involved.

You should play in a silver or gold team! Doesnt matter for how long you stay inactive. Once Div1, always div1.

Yes it's Sassa.

Big lol? I think you underestimate the current skill level of high bronzeteams a bit. Imo, the difference between highest bronze clans and low-/mid-silver clans isn't that big at all. But I see your point

Might be true in some cases. But also it depends on teamies. Look at Samojedit as example. Oho is really good, has great individual skill. Still didn't help them that much last NQR-match we played vs them.

I'm still not positive to the whole idea with a lot better players in Bronze. Can see both pros and cons, though.

I understand the admins having a really hard time finding a nice balance: when the Higher skilled player is to good, or when the clans current lineup is to good to have him added, and so on.

So the admins would rate sassas/roz strength as too high for a late addition to a bronze clan. Even tho, that I might not agree, I would take the decision and play your NQR games without him.
In the same time you can always let him prac with you - and if he is a good teacher like you say - you will take the learnings into your NQR games. Doesn't sound so unfair to me, is it? ;-)

Word RaptoR.

Ha ha ha.. You're welcome to try and play a pracc with us. vs like [qk] or something who isn't even the absolute top team, but still good.
I think you either overestimates the impact of one players individual skill, or deeply underestimates bronze teams.

The pracs we have played with sassa so far has pretty much proven that he is not going to ruin the games.

Well I think that it can be a good thing that people express their opinions
instead of just stfu admin sais so.
Its not like I made a riot, or that we played with him in NQR while being disallowed.

If we were robots, then that might be a good idea.
But in the real world. people like to prac with their clan and mates. and play games with clan and mates.

Its like disallowing you and znappe from sTa in nqr, but hey! you can prac with them! yaaaaaaaaaaaay

You shouldn't mix the truth like you need it mate.
You know very good, that we were in the clan when sTa signed up to NQR and got placed into bronze. A late addition can be denied by the admins, that's what they did. I'm sure it's hard to face it, but ... roz came a little bit late. Regarding his personal blog theatre, that's no wonder. :-)
Ah, and noone told you that you mustn't express your opinion. Feel free to do so, but expect people to have a different one.

Yes I know that very well, and havnt tried to deny it.
I do think that the same logical decision making thats being used before season should be used here too.
And thats what im trying to say with that.
-- "Is this TEAM going to be bronze skill" if yes then place them in bronze -- "is this TEAM going to be bronze skill" if yes allow the rooster to play.
-- "Is this TEAM going to be bronze skill" if no with that team, talk to them and maybe put in silver. --"is this TEAM going to be bronze skill" if the new rooster would mean that the TEAM reaches a higher div, then do not allow the new rooster to play(until the next season) maybe putting them in silver then.

Actually I was encourage to write this post from the beginning.

riosatiy, why can't you guys just try to improve by yourselves? watch some demos, specc 4on4-games, lots of pracs etc. In time you will improve your tp. Learn from Roz then if you find it necessary, but whining about him not beeing allowed to play with you in bronze is just pitiful. Then he could as well play with FA as originally intended. Of course he will, if allowed, have a great impact on your tp and performance. The screenshots I have seen so far with Roz playing with FA and BP doesn't much. Why? Because those screens were when BP and FA faced Na Fianna and Naim. Two top contenders for the bronze title. Roz might not have that impact on such solid teams as the irish lads or the norwegian lusekoftor, but will surely make a big difference against "less solid teams" in bronze. Then other "less solid teams" should be allowed to sign their div2-3 mate and so fucking on in eternity...

I think you are ALL exaggerating my skills abit too much!
Last time two times I played in a league was start of 2007 in div2 with a .no team and we didnt do that well, before that it was before summer 2006 with Suddendeath in div1.
I have not played in a league since that and HOW much mix games do I actually play?

I depend alot on my teamm8s, Im not a 1 man army. Well just trying to explain how I work and how the team is.
Willghurt, I was once that good but not now and u wouldnt own that hard in bronze, its all based on how good your teamm8s are thats why shitty arnette (sry no personal attack) is owning so hard in bronze, its all based on the good tp of antic and iggy who are both div2 players (same skill level as me) and arnette as div2 with some talent and lots of quad runs.

Iggy/antic are in the same level as overdose/votary who played in div4 1 year ago and a couple of days ago just beated Slackers with suddendeath.

Raptor, I dont got that much time to spend on QW and I want therefor spend those hours to play official games, was so long time ago since I did it and I really wanna get into the competition level of QW again. Im not here for playing PRACCs, I wanna play official game and feel the stress and the heat before/after the games with ping whine and what not.

Who sais I can't? Im doing that every day.
Of course he could just as well play with FA or m44

no ALL clans in one div should be treated equally. top clans should not be able to just add more and more good players because, hey they are going to win anyways. if they can, bottom clans or "less solid teams" should be able to do the same even if it maybe makes them a little bit better than they used to.

riosatiy: Read your last post again and rephrase it a bit. Hard to get what you actually mean?

sassa: Give me a break about overd/votary and antic/igggy-talk. Antic said himself that the clan was based on Votarys TP and skill. If what you are saying would be anything near true they would have played in Div1 or Gold Cup with EnemyQuad.

What's the point of continuing this? Facts are:
-Admins won't deny they might have made some mistakes regarding skill-level of some people in Bronze.
-Admins say that they won't deny these people to play now that the season has started.

So where is the logic in adding more of these players into Bronze Cup? And stop the "there already are higher skilled players playing in bronze"-craptalk. Yes it is, we know it, admins know, everyone knows it! Is it an excuse to make the same misstake again?!

That's how things is this season. Start practicing instead for gods sake and try to learn for yourself instead of having someone thinking for you.

nothing really, u stated it perfectly and the last chapter of this story ended a long time ago!

Fog's last post is a masterpiece and states common sense. I think this whole thing is going on so that some who are not able to win bronze now are trying to gather some people to do it. Admins deny addition suggestions that has been made and riosatiy just can't take it. http://nqr.nu/nqr11/index.php?cont=rules#18

pleura, Nice post as excepted from you. It reminds me about Soma's post about 8½ hours work. He could have asked through forums and irc for help. I'm not able to help in this matter but someone might have.