independent physics for the win!

Baker5 there's no point in arguing this already
i started this thread more like when stumbling on a curious thing.

btw WTF?.. most photos on QuakeOne are downright disturbing with random dubious people :/

Normal Quake Rules! <3

Baker5: I play with xQuake when I play nq/q1.
I love the lookdown/lookup feature it has, even QW miss that feature.

Everyone has what they like.

I tried really hard to convert to Quakeworld in 2005 because I was in love with with the absolute quality of FuhQuake (I admire the work and innovation in ezQuake, but I really think ezQuake is over-modded). I don't care for Team Fortress one bit, to be quite honest, so I wanted to play something "REAL".

Really, if the USA had a server like XS4ALL where there were regularly 6-10 players playing FFA, I could play Quakeworld. In fact, I've played quite a few times at XS4ALL with 100 ping.

Something for you European guys to consider ...

Quakeworld at 30 ping is fine for me. I hate prediction and with 30 ping, Quakeworld's prediction doesn't bother me at all. I like playing Trinca's Frogbots with FuhQuake.

But you guys in Europe are all concentrated in an area smaller than Texas for the most part (Sweden, Finland, Poland, etc.). North America is a very large place. That means higher pings.

Quakeworld at 50-70 ping has things about that annoy the crap out of me. I don't like prediction, at 30 ping the prediction in Quakeworld is trivial. But at 50-70 ping, it changes the fundamentals. The animation looks wrong, you get to see opponents rockets even less.

While in NetQuake, their maybe a 1/20th second delay in firing, you always get to see your opponent fire the rocket. In Quakeworld with higher pings, it is often a race to get the first shot off and you get cheated of reaction time.

If I play some Quakeworld, and I like custom maps quite a bit, adjusting the aim a little for NetQuake takes a few minutes to re-adjust, but it's always consistent and the animation always looks right.

Most arguments about NetQuake or Quakeworld usually, after discussion, tend to boil down to the physics. And I can certainly understand people who prefer the movement flexibility of Quakeworld, it can be fun to see how far you take it. I think I'd take Quakeworld over NetQuake any day in 100 ping scenario. If I get a mediian ping of around 60, I'm more than happy with NetQuake. Most of the NQ servers with within 2 states of me so I get about 40 ping.

Really, there is no XS4ALL-like Quakeworld server in the US. There is one FFA DM server that gets intermittent activity, but I've never seen 9-10 players there, usually it 3-4 players.

Long story short, I could have been a Quakeworlder. I think a lot of things about the Quakeworld community, past and present, are quite ideal ... especially the aspect of cooperation. But I just really enjoy playing NetQuake more.

In theory we could give QW a 'feel' much like NetQuake's by disabling prediction, adding interpolation and perhaps adding some 30 ms of synthetic lag to simulate NQ's low update rate. A QW player will puke when he tries it, but an NQ guy may feel right at home.

But there's no point. Because NetQuakers will perform just as bad (probably worse) against QW players. They'll tell you that QW physics is still wrong and bunny hopping is not something God wanted Quake to have, and go back to playing NQ.

You see, one reason QW players are better is that they don't have to waste their brainpower on predicting their character's movement X ms into the future - somethig a machine does faster and with better precision. They can instead concentrate on aim, movement, item timing and strategy. (The latter is something humans are still very, very good at despite all the progress in artificial intelligence)

QW may not feel as smooth at times, but it's the best interface to this fast and cruel virtual world you can get. It's not about prettiness (although newer engines try to address that). It's about performance. It's about pwnage.


Or we could do it the other way round and add prediction to NetQuake instead, and after some practice you could perform better against players who use traditional engines. It won't work so well in NQ as it would in QW, because the NQ protocol lacks a few importang things that make QW's prediction so good, but it will work. And then NQ diehards will probably start calling you a cheater and tell you to go back to QW.

We could do that. But why strap prediction onto a horribly outdated network architecture when there's a newer, better protocol which is also much more popular?

the hardliner has spoken!

...
however i agree, for the most part. it just sounded a bit harsh. one could also add that in terms of 'outdatedness' qw and nq *both* are not exactly brand new. what you like and what you don't is in part always due to what you're used to.

People will always find a way to prove that what they like is better. Look at Deathmatch Classic community. It's small, probably smaller than netQuake one, but there are still people who prefer to play this copy of Quake than real Quake. They know new clients look better than DMC, have more features etc. but still refuse to play original - some say DMC guns are slightly more balanced (they are, but imo this change is big flaw), some say QW is too fast and chaotic compared to DMC (well, few years ago QW was only true fast-paced fps, but now there are CPMA & Warsow, and no one says they are too fast and chaotic), some say steam gives possibility to be in touch with other players (like there is no forums/mail/irc/ventrillo/skype and shitloads of other communicators). And i think whatever DMC players will say to prove that DMC > Quake, both netQuake and QW players can't really understand these people choice. I feel like that after reading Baker5 post - i totally understand what guy is saying, but still can't understand why he prefer netQ, and believe me, i really try to

CPMA came a long time ago.

Nobody's Alternative gets a lot frequently actually if you play at the right times. The activity levels on Rune Quake might be more active but generally QW seems fairly similar to NQ now(a while back it was much more active). However, I find it a crappy server since it's ran by admins who will ban anyone "camping"(which for all intents and purposes just means you are winning by a lot over the regulars). It is pretty easy to dominate considering almost none of the regulars can shaft over 20% nor run armors/mega. Recently it's gotten even easier to win as I feel the skill level has been going down since they kick/ban/harass good players.

As for the NQers left in North America I'll add my two cents. I was a NQer for YEARS, on a 28k modem no less. I tried QW once and went back to NQ right away. The NQ community inherited a special gift from Deathrow(and other elite NQers) - an intense, blind, and irrational hatred of QW. Eventually NQ started to die down(after NAQL) and I switched over the QW. You can't really understand NA NQers but most of them are incredibly close minded. Most will say "yeah I've tried QW" but what they generally means if they've played an hour or less with the intention of just playing QW to justify it as crap. The NA NQ community is so small and dead I'm surprised there are still so many numerous individuals in it that play on such an infrequent basis.

I used to play CRMOD TDM with the NA NQers and could do ok with 250ms on a 28k back in 2005. I went to watch Slik play NQ TDM one day and he tore them up with 80 frag games since they didn't know how to play the QW style of positions. The NQ NA community is just weird. I'd still play NQ since I ping so good but I find the clients to be on the whole to be pretty bad compared to EZQuake. Last I checked they don't even have anything at a MQWCL level yet. I don't even think they've managed to fix the crosshair yet(I'd love to hear I'm wrong!).

Some NQers I know of who played QW in recent years Bib(months), Breakdown(months), Cinsere(months), Knell(months), SB(?), Badcat(from QW originally!), Krix(played about 20mins before quiting), Bruce(maybe 30 mins), and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head. I also played QW some with Rook and showed him CTF IIRC. He just complained nonstop about how his view was tearing and shit if he turned really fast in QW. Most NQers usually latch onto some irrational complaint like that to justify going back to NQ. I should know it's how I originally reacted too.

Being on both sides I give about zero weight to any pro-NQ argument, and the evolution of FPS multiplayer has shown QW was on the right path. On the whole NA Quake was split almost in two for a long time NQ and QW which I think drastically cut the life of both communities. The majority of NQers who play QW seem to adjust to it and like it more after a while. I don't know of any NQer off hand who is skilled at QW and prefers NQ. Maybe SB but I forget if he can even bunny, etc. Even Bib learned to bunny hop!

Yup, and it was (is) quite popular here in poland, but it takes few years for ppl to actually treat it as serious mod.
I wish that CPMA don't have such weak guns (fkin balance :/ grrrr), because movement is just perfect. It is fun for me to jump around the map, but i feel like it takes whole eternity to kill someone when compared to QW.

Sorry for the late reply, pg ...

Yeah, it's been a while since I've played at Nobody's Alternative (about a year now), but the last time I was there IDS Throwdown (spelling?) was getting harassed by someone and getting called a cheater and it was kind of absurd.

And I tire of hearing that cheater stuff by a bottom of the deck player.

The problem with Nobody's Alternative when there wasn't at least 6 or 7 players, was the skill disparity.

If was just a couple of players, either the 2 players were absolute doormats that were no fun to kill or absolute gods. I don't mind absolute gods so much except if the map stinks (I don't like maps like E1M7 that can be controlled so easily, I like maps like ztdm3 and ultrav or chesdm1).

But if the players are doormats, it's just no fun



Agreed.


Yeah, your wrong about point #2. Some are close on point #1. But I have to say I'm not yet entirely satisfied with anything.


I don't think Quakeworld is "wrong". I tried to organize some small Quakeworld games back in 2005 and my biggest problem is that some people would insist on leaving repeatedly within a couple of minutes "I can't stand this", "I hate this", "this is terrible", "omg - how can anyone play this".

I think if the NQ and QW CTFers got together, there would be enough of them for their to be a CTF community. Probably the same with DM. But I realize it's not going to happen.

Yeah it's pretty bad. Considering IDS Throwdown beats most people in FFA and he has about 1.38 life time frag ratio over there. Top players will get generally 3.00-5.00+ ratio. So they usually get banned or abused by the server admins on the spot. The guy who runs it has gone so far as to code stuff like taking away your ability to fire or making you jump constantly and other crap just as an annoyance.


The crosshair is actually fixed by moving it down to match eye level or just cl_crossx and cl_crossy? Because I thought it was just the latter.


Yeah typical from hardcore NQers. They aren't willing to give it a chance at all.


The thing is NQers would want QWers to play NQ but QWers can't go back to NQ unless they are willing to give up bunnying, and prediction which makes QWers aim probably on the whole 2x as good. I've never seen anyone LG 40% or juggle people in the air with rockets on a regular basis in NQ.

Qrack and JoeQuake simply have a center crosshair, not surprising since JoeQuake is largely a direct FuhQuake port, minus some features.

ProQuake 3.60 and beyond have a centered crosshair by default, but has the option for the crappy off-centered one because if you've played 8 years with the crosshair in the wrong place, it foobars you LG aim.


I hate to say this, but there is a rock-hard stubbornness among some in the NQ community to play anything "different", including maps or even seemingly trivial differences in mods. There was an explosion of anger among some CA+ players (the old holy grail CA mod in NQ) about CAx's use of the *default* rocket damage in CAx instead of what had become a CA+ norm of rockets capped at 100.

Now, I won't pretend I know enough about hardcore Quakeworld players to know whether or not they reject any sort of map diversity, but the seeming unwillingness for any kind of diversity of some of the hardcore NQ community comes across to me as troubling at times.

It is my perception, right or wrong, that there is dogged rigidity in both NQ and QW and I think perhaps that may stem from the age of the game, but I think NQ has it worse (or maybe I'm all wrong).

Right or wrong about the above paragraph, I do think NQ has 2 things potentially going for it.

1) It can be steered more easily due to the smaller size of the community and less "chiefs". This could mean, should things crystalize properly, that NQ could make community changes and/or server/engine/mod changes that could have popular appeal.

2) As badly as a newbie tends to get beat in NQ, you don't have to explain the bunny to them. At least once they figure out the rules, reflexes and experience decide the rest. I know the bunny is a great appeal to Quakeworlders and adds a fun dimension to the game to master, but it is sort of a mysterious wet blanket to a newbie.


LG 40% is impossible in NQ, I've never seen it (legitimately). Air with rockets on a regular basis in NQ isn't really possible either. Needless to say as I'm sure you know, airshaft is quite common in NQ (might be harder, but it's widespread among better players).

I think some of the NQ/QW fears is that a player worries if they switch from one to the other, they'd go down a notch or 2. I don't really know if this is actually the case, but the fear itself is the real barrier ("What if I suck playing the other and someone sees me lose?".

In Qrack crosshair_static 0 will position the "+" (crosshair), exactly in relations to the screen matrix where the aim is directed. This is most usefull if u are shooting from say pent window to Pent and your aim is too close to the window ledge, the crosshair will shift where your aim is gonna HIT based on an internal traceline. Its 100% exact to the aim (unless the mod uses altered physics). You can test it againsT nails at fov 10 same with gl_laserpoint too.



I dont mind the pace of QuakeWorld, prior to independent physics it felt crippled, though, i wish there was some sort of "cl_interpolate" for ALL entities.

The same feature exists in FTEQW too (crosshaircorrect 1). I don't think many people know that. And I don't think many people would be happy about it being allowed in leagues.

Here's my laser point code, easily portable to ezQuake.

I wish we could all play Quake. all playing the same mod, the same client, the same engine. We sure had plenty more players in a more active community with more tournaments and coverage. more interest.

all of us are somewhat "close-minded" because we won't trade quake for any other game. but being "close-minded" is different from being irracional. I used to play netQuake, only at lans, and it rocked (sv_mintic 0.1, anyone?) but we eventually shifted to quakeworld, even at lans, because even at the time qw had better tools (dr. drain's qwadmin,etc.). This was 1998. now, 10 years later, qw has much better "tools" PLUS it was meant to play multiplayer over the internet, making qw light-years away in every aspect (as tonik mentioned).

change is part of life. but some things dont ever change. what I mean is: change to a newer, improved engine where the community is more active and bigger, even at the cost of getting used to different physics? the advantages are much more than the disavantages, takes time(but we have time), bottom line, YES! (and it will eventually happen in the future, if it doesnt, both communities will be dead - im talking way ahead in time) switch to any other game? ofc NOT! why would we do that?


edit: last night was NQR Semi final. A day of the week, according to this news post the match had 145 spectators. and the us is only 100ms away... (btw, mvdsv routing feature, when?)

wow could i get a build for Linux sputnik? preferably 32bit(ezQuake) that's the best possible solution iv'e ever seen

mushi: I agree. We should all switch to DarkPlaces ;P

ruski: Ack! I dont have Linux installed, (i do have xubuntu somewhere on dvd..) but if anyone can compile ezQuake its almost a cut/paste job,


in gl_rmain.c under void R_RenderScene (void)

Yeah, and We all will have to buy quadcores and 9800gx2 to get more than 30 fps! :p

--//--

I don't care about the lack of smothness in qw player's animation, cause I don't have time to pay attention on it when I'm playing. In the other hand, the lag feeling of a 50ms ping in NQ is so disgusting as a 200ms ping at QW.

I was meaning DarkPlaces PROTOCOL, or even FTE!

The jittery-ness of the movements aren't animations, it lack of prediction interpolation on entities. Heck the missiles are skippidy-do-dah in mid flight...
Sure you dont like NQ at 50 ping, but watch a match at 50 ping on NQ and all entities are fluid. Could QW buffer each clients actions, and interpolate the result since the lagged client is backwards in time??

I'm just saying at the right ping, and ticrate, NQ feels fine even though its not exactly logical. :|

BTW heres some code to counter-attack wallhacks from us netQuakers...
(http://www.quakeone.com/qrack/culltrace.txt)

i always heard about this complaint from NQ players.. can you please post a relevant comparison video? i don't know how that manifests.

Shoot the sng and side-step (on a server of course, you will need some lag), you will see the projectiles jitter. To me this is more a cosmetic thing though, I could not imagine any reasonable impact on gameplay.

I guess the best way to describe it is, try playing a local game with interpolate_transform OFF and ON.
It's cosmetic on the client side, but takes some time getting used to. ezQuake is alot better now than FuhQuake, and independent physics helps alot.

I did hop on a server in NQ at 50 ping at a ticrate of 0.05 and it felt like walking in wet sand. At ticrate 0.013(77fps) at sub 30 ping it feels closer to QW though...

This is one of the things I can't understand! Is NQuakers assuring NQ is better than QW cause it doesn't have jitters in the animation? And if so, if animation is something so important, why they keep playing a 10 years old game? o_O

Dunno, tell em to try an fte client on an fte server with cl_nolerp 0 and see what they think.

Of course, a QW player would never want to use that setting because it requires a bit of buffering...

This board REALLY needs video embed if it doesn't have this already.

No, embedding videos is like adding annoying flashing banners. Oh wait...

You can simply link?

Bleh!

I haven't made anything

But if there were embed, I might think about it, heheh.

What I like about embeds is that if the embed inspires curiousity, someone would click "Play". A link is a boring thing. I guess in my head there is a difference between making something 2 people click on versus 20.

I might think about.

I was thinking about digging up a demo to illustrate a big difference between NetQuake and Quakeworld when it comes to rockets. If I play Quakeworld, it's what I miss the most about NetQuake. Can't really be explained easily. The shaft is an instantaneous weapon in either, so is shotgun and the rest of the weapons are irrelevant mostly.