I know a lot of you find this topic annoying, but this thread is going to be about which features are allowed in QW and which not and for what reasons. So all of you who are fed up with this issue can stop reading now.

I am not satisfied with the situation already for some time, to be exactly since the modified bold2.mdl discussion while QWDL. Back then there was already a huge discussion about what is a cheat and what is a feature and in the end grump, decided to let the admins vote and we voted against the modified bold2.mdl. However, I have to say if we were to vote again today I would vote in favor of the modified model.

I mainly write this post because of the discussion evolving around the latest EZQuake version and the inbuild strafescript.


I think we are about to run into a real problem here, because we have no real ruleset. I know we have the smackdown ruleset and the current "law" is what it is in there is considered a cheat. The problem is that this ruleset is not a kind of "law" but more a list of things that are illegal and this is the root of all the problems.

We dont have a rule that says messurements that makes it easier to keep track of your enemy and make him more visible are illegal. We allow fb skins, modified level textures, modified crosshairs and so on. All this stuff is considered customize your QW. If somebody uses a thinner shaft, it is considered a cheat because it is a skill to aim with the distracting big enemyshaft in your face. It is not a skill to spot a non fb enemy in a darker corner, aiming with a white crosshair against a bright walltexture. These messurements are considered as customization or performing enhancing or just removing annoying effects of the game.


It is similiar with the latest debate about the inbuild strafescript. We don't have a rule that says messurements the automates actions are illegal. these scripts were used for a while by a few (maybe a lot of) players. Now, through the simplified method of the latest EZQuake build it came into the public eye and a lot of people start to complain about this "cheat", because it automates something that good players can do manually. This would have the effect that good players will lose one of "their skills" as lower players will have a performance boost by this. On the other hand side we allow weapon scripts, that changes the gameplay maybe in the most drastic way you can imagine. Tactical players loses their advantage to go into battle with the right weapon equipped, because even if his enemy is coming around the corner thinking I will shaft him now and have to change his decision when he sees the tactical player, he wont have any disadvantage by this.


Furthermore this whole weaponscript thing changes the flow of the game. You can bunnyhopp around press rightmouse button, instant rocket; press left mousebutton, best weapon you have picked up and so on. There is no bunnyhopping around with the SSG in hand spotting the enemy and you have to leave your moving buttons on your keyboard to switch to another weapon. If this is not altering the gameplay, then I dont know. Not to mention the autoswitch back to sg after every shot, making it nearly impossible for your opponent to get your weapon after the frag. (Don't get me wrong the last thing I want is to get rid of the weaponscripts, they are one of the reasons I play QW)


I just picked those cases as examples. I understand that during Quake's peak there were a lot of modifications, performance enhancers and other stuff and the players back then had to draw a line somewhere. The problem is that newer players and maybe even older players don't see any consistency which will result in a big problem sooner or later. Let me explain. I have to get back to bold2.mdl discussion again. Back then we had some players saying yeah let's get rid of this ugly shaft, some said I don't care and some said "If you keep this rule I won't play in your league". I think most of the admins back then decided to disallow the shaft model again to not drive away players from the league, even if they didn't care about it or even wanted to play with the model themself. They didn't decide against the model because of the arguements presented to them. They did it to please people who threatend not to play. Think about what will happen next time when the admins say, we want a modified model and we want those strafescripts, because they arent illegal due to a reason but due to preferences. Some players won't participate in the league, because "cheats" are allowed. So those players will be left outside. And here the split of our already small community begins. If banning fb skins would be up to vote. I would instantly be in favor of banning, because i find them ugly and they ruin the atmosphere.

What I wanted to say with this ( I am really sorry that it became so long, I thought i could get my point across much faster) is that we shouldn't debate single "features/cheats" but we should lay out general rules that allow or disallow certain messurements. Only this will save us from having to debate this topic over and over again everytime somebody wants to introduce something new. Because you will be able to say, yes it fits in the description or not.


That's it. Sorry again.

Yes! Thats the only problem with QW IMHO (and not being able to get an instant duel ;-)). The whole "well x is ok because it has been around for ages but y is a cheat because it is new" is just plain weird. I understand that various aspects change the required skill levels but an aspect should be across the board e.g. If you can modify bolt, then you can modify RL trail and if you can use FB skins, then you can use simple textures.

Going forward, and again IMHO, it would be great if nQuake shipped looking sexy AND that it was legal for all leagues/tourneys. If that means something has to change for some players, then so be it.

I am not going to debate here about anything, there are other threads existing and the flaming can happen there. However, I will reply something in general in how to look at things.

1) The features that have been there for a long time.

When considering new allowed things, you can't take some feature out of context that has been allowed before, it just doesn't work that way. For example fb skins were allowed a long long time ago, and they are now standard among QW. There is no real reason changing something like this. Also weapon scripts were allowed a long time ago, and as something becomes accepted over time and has been there for ages, there is very little to be done with it, since majority is OK with that fact.


2) New features that could be there and have been accepted lately.

Some features has been widely accepted to the QW, some of them benefit everyone (FPS-I physics) and some of them benefit only certain group of people (fakeshaft) and some things that are not that visible in the scene (luma textures). These features usually benefit everyone who uses them, even though I have to say using FPS-I physics benefits CRT players a lot more than it benefits TFT users due to big difference in refreshrate (60-75Hz vs 120-160Hz at max).


3) The features that need discussion.

Stuff that might help all but is considered still cheating. For example gl_shaftalpha and cl_rollalpha. The first one further removes distraction that is caused by the bolt but it has a downside, it also limits the visibility of the enemy bolt so if you get attacked from behind you might not know the exact direction where the attack comes from because you can't see the bolt. Rollalpha on the other hand would probably help everyone willing to use it, as it removes the distraction caused by the rollangle but still keeps the enemy leaning. Some of these features could be decided after discussing them properly and NOT fanatically saying this and that (which is irrelevant of course).


4) The stuff that needs rechecking and should probably not be allowed.

Things that have been disallowed since the beginning or during the evolving years of QW. Such things like RJ scripts and automated team messages. If you disallow these, then you should see the relation in similar scripts when considering how things work (for example move.cfg or cl_idrive). Why were these disallowed in the first place, what's the reasoning? Such automation scripts and helping scripts make things easier, thus lowering the skill factor in QW. Something like movement script allows you to dodge better, move faster and do tricks better than without it, and it can have very little or very big impact on the player's performance on a particular level.


5) The stuff that's in the maps.

Things like DM6 lift rj and pines through dm2 upper rl lift wall. The first one is part of the game these days, so it can't be touched even if it's a clear bug. The second one has been blocked by new collision detection and is probably something noone ever used (except in prewar). Usually when some bug becomes a feature in a map then it can be considered a part of the game in that map.


When people are considering all of the things mentioned above, you must have an overall view of the game. There's absolutely no place for selfish thinking like "this feature will help me, not that I admit it but as long as it's good for me then it should be allowed". Think about what changes it does in game, then think if it benefits everyone or very seldom people. Also think about the "human factor" which is indefinitely important thing as a person can only be at certain level before physical restraints kick in (like reaction time, motoric accuracy, nervous system and so on). Some people can be only so good at something, why should they get improvement by using some feature that helps them to overcome their own limitations?

so according to point 3 all your past posts about the movement script are irrelevant? of course!

I have very little to say about your provocative tone of replies, it's already very clear to me what you are trying to do so why don't you keep your rule-violating replies to yourself.


Warnings +1.

As I understand it, this is the main point of what you are saying. And to be honest this scares me. Immediately jump to my mind all the idiotic forum talks where people compare quakeworld to football and other non-sense generalising and comparing stuff that cannot be compared. Each feature has it's consequences. It's not that every feature just fits into some general measurement and that way it's good or bad. Some features even fit into more than one general measurements.

I really hope that I've just misunderstood your intentions in this...

i'm embarrassed to admit i don't actually know what the dm2 high rl gl thing is, can someone enlighten me? thanks

1. Equip the grenade launcher
2. Move onto lifts at high-rl
3. Quickly get of the lift and wait for it to come down.
4. Just before it comes down, shoot a grenade under it, if you're "lucky" it will come out on the other side of the wall (i.e. in the big room)

Demo can be found on tricks.quakeworld.nu

No Johnny, I don't want any stupid comparisons with football. What I want is that if something that does a,b,c is allowed should automatically lead to the conclusion that another feature that is new and does a,b,c as well should be legal too. If the new feature does a, b, f and f is declared illegal, then the new feature is illegal as well. There should be consistency in our rules. I just find it stupid to call some stuff feature, because it has always been like this and other stuff cheat because it is new, but does exactly the same.

An example for a rule could be: Messurements that move the mouse for you are illegal.

This would include any kind of aimbots, as well as rj scripts, but would left other scripts, such as weaponscripts untouched. So if there is going to be any kind of mouse moving feature in the future, you can say it contradicts rule xyz and thus is illegal.